December 9, 2021: Release 4

[Gandalf]

Divide and conquer is exactly it. As long as the majority is at each other's throats, tearing each other down, we have no energy left for the crooked minority who really deserve our attention.

The worst part of it is that we do it to ourselves. Humans are inherently tribal (look up Social Identity Theory if you're interested), so culture wars start up with no prompting whatsoever. All the assholes have to do is sit back and take advantage, with only the tiniest bit of stirring required to keep it going.

[Gandalf]

Or to put it another way: the patriarchy couldn't be happier that some feminists are preoccupied with trans people rather than concentrating on the actual problem (i.e. said patriarchy).

[Solid-Glitter]

True that.

[LinguisticTacoXX]

The statement Lesbians need to sleep with transgender people, Is crazy rape culture shit. If someone doesn’t want to sleep with someone that is their choose.(this statement gets quoted a lot in arguments I have never heard a trans person utter it but…)

I've seen some arguments like that, to be fair. It's not specifically lesbians and trans women (and I've seen a lot of straight men, gay men, and straight women told this argument), but there's a common argument of "it's transphobic not to want to sleep with trans people". I'm someone who's personally open to sleeping with someone trans, but I don't really get the logic behind it. I know we all have biases, prejudices, etc... and that can influence who we want to sleep with... but IMO it's kind of a stretch? As long as someone has a certain level of basic human respect for a trans person (like, not misgendering and letting them be themselves), why does it matter?

I've asked a trans friend of mine I trust, and she doesn't get it either. My guess is these are the ones who are disheartened by the dating game, because a lot of people just aren't attracted to them and the ones that are attracted are really obsessed with the whole trans thing in a creepy way. Whereas the person I asked has tons of people who crush on her, and from what I understand, she's more offended by the creeps who reduce her to her genitals rather than the folks who simply aren't attracted.

Because, I mean even considering trans women are women and trans men are men, there are certain kinds of men and women people are not attracted to. It's not saying to a trans woman "hey, I think you're a dude" if you're simply not interested. You could just not be into it.

Although, I would add that I think it is in poor taste to say "I wouldn't sleep with a trans woman" in the comments section of a news article where a trans woman was murdered. Like how it is if you're seeing an article about how fat people are mistreated in society, and you say "well, I really wouldn't sleep with a fat person". Yeah, valid, but... no one gives a shit.

[Gandalf]

People make sense of things in terms of how those things relate to themselves I guess. Fuel prices are going up... how does that affect *me*? My government is increasingly blatant in its dishonesty... have they lied about anything *I* personally care about? Someone whose gender identity confuses me got killed... well *I'm* not interested in sleeping with someone like that.

Takes a certain amount of self-awareness not just to blurt those out, and reflect on the situation with a little less solipsism.

[Z6IIAB]

What I am saying is that Sinfest reflects only the parts of our world that Tat wants to reflect.

Yes, and I agree xD

If we are carrying out a true 'anti-vax' fantasy world then it really helps that there are no Covid illnesses or deaths.

That is the one thing I find impossible to understand when I talk to the 'Covid is a hoax' people. How do they explain the excessive deaths? They can only use the 'vaccine is deadly' explanation since after the vaccines started.

I mean, other than to deny Covid deaths - which is a view I have heard stated. Usually though, they just say the numbers are conflated and the rates of death are just the same as any other flu year. All the excess are due to 'other' reasons. This of course means they have to completely avoid looking at the total number of deaths having increased.

It must be very hard to keep such a belief system running.

Exactly.

[Z6IIAB]

Just a suggestion to all the rad fems out there, if you want transgender people out of your spaces maybe working with us to get Trans safe spaces and bathrooms would be more productive.

What organization is working on creating the separate trans spaces? I am totally on board with that.
I am a big supporter of transgender people having safe spaces and public restrooms as well as safe spaces within the prison systems.

It is not the 'rad fem' women who are needing to 'work on getting the Trans safe spaces and bathrooms'.

From the start it seems that the major thrust of the TRA movement has been to NOT make Trans safe spaces and instead to move into the previously women only spaces.

By doing this and requiring only 'self identification' as authenticity we now have a situation where no one is safe because the predators know good and well they cannot be kept out of these spaces. All they have to do is 'identify' and they are allowed access. So there is no women's space that is safe - neither for adult human females nor for transwomen.

Also, no one mentioned trans issues, Glitter. No one mentioned it, again. And again a post about covid and anti-vax gets derailed. Go preach your bullshit elsewhere, it's annoying.

[Gandalf]

I dunno - there are parallels between the debates, and even if it was derailed the thread did seem to have re-railed itself pretty quickly.

[Z6IIAB]

I dunno - there are parallels between the debates, and even if it was derailed the thread did seem to have re-railed itself pretty quickly.

Let's keep it like that then.

[Gandalf]

Sure.

So what's the chain of reasoning that has landed us here? I think it's maybe something like:

• Down with the patriarchy

• Trans women are an attempt by men to colonise womens spaces

• The left embraces trans rights

• The lwft is an illiberal cult that uses cancellation to squash dissent

• In fact, the left is just the patriarchy in disguise

• The left is now pushing vaccination the same way it pushes trans rights

• Therefore down with vaccination

Not trying to critique, just analyse.

[Z6IIAB]

Sure.

So what's the chain of reasoning that has landed us here? I think it's maybe something like:

• Down with the patriarchy

• Trans women are an attempt by men to colonise womens spaces

• The left embraces trans rights

• The lwft is an illiberal cult that uses cancellation to squash dissent

• In fact, the left is just the patriarchy in disguise

• The left is now pushing vaccination the same way it pushes trans rights

• Therefore down with vaccination

Not trying to critique, just analyse.

Yeah, Idk if that's Tat train of thought... but it could as well be. It shouldn't surprise me an american thinks the left is embracing trans rights. Well, """left""". Liberals/democrats really think they're "left", when all they are is right wing with "social justice" as an intere$t and inve$timent. Left wing for real would never abandon materialist analysis and pretend sex isn't real or isn't being used to hierarchize men and women. Radical feminism was birthed from female marxist theorists and activists. Radical feminism is left wing. Amazing how misogynists and their allies decided to lie about that. But it's easy since they're lying to people that are too dumb to go do proper research on the matter.

[Gandalf]

I know what you mean about the American perception of "left": the Dems would probably count as right-wing by European standards.

I'm not sure about anyone 'pretending sex isn't real'. That's something I'd like to ask you more about, but as you say this thread may not be the place.

It's the leap from radical feminism to antivax that I'm trying to make sense of for now, that's already plenty for me to be wrapping my tiny mind around!

[Z6IIAB]

I know what you mean about the American perception of "left": the Dems would probably count as right-wing by European standards.

by most countries' standards that aren't USA imo. especially countries that have strong present left-wing parties, I'd say.

I'm not sure about anyone 'pretending sex isn't real'. That's something I'd like to ask you more about, but as you say this thread may not be the place.

yeah it's not the place lol, but I say this bc I'm tired of narcissitic trolls derailing the subjects and bullying radical feminists here. it's gross.

you could start a new thread in general issues if you want (or just wherever I guess??? but that seems like the proper place). even if it gets filled with transactivists talking shit about radical feminism, it could actually be a good thing lol, because they will show you what they really think eventually.

knowing it's a fact they deny sex as a reality should be common knowledge tho'... unless you're really new to the radfems vs. transactivists debate. their narrative varies with time and from person to person - bc they obviously don't know wtf they're talking about. they can go from flat out denying it (e.g. "SEx iS A SoCiAl cOnStRuCt!1! GeNdEr is inNaTe1!") to just trying to use mental gymnastics to explain how gender has nothing to do with sex for them - even tho' they lobby for surgeries and hormones they think can change one's sex. even thought dysphoria was once considered a requirement to be trans. the change that resulted in their "man can have vaginas/women can have penises" mantra is rather recent, i'd say about 1 or 2 decades at best. 10 years ago, that's not what you would hear from them, not in the forefront, and I know this for a fact because that's how long I've been accompanying those matters.

so yeah, summed it up for you. other gender critical feminists and radical feminists here can probably give you an in depth answer, and maybe even show you some links to threads exemplifying what I just said, there's lot of those out there. I didn't want to comment on this matter here on the thread, but I also didn't wanna wait for you to create a new thread, since this is all I'll say on this matter. so. that's it on my behalf.

It's the leap from radical feminism to antivax that I'm trying to make sense of for now, that's already plenty for me to be wrapping my tiny mind around!

I KNOW RIGHT? I don't get how tat got there either. there is gender critical women who are antivax, i've seen them on spinster and ovarit. but they're like 30% of the whole group. and most of the antivax ones are not left wing at all lol. also, antivaxxers, regardless of political ideologies, don't really have a grasp of how science work, but I guess they're ashamed of their ignorance so they pretend they know more than actual scientists? which they confuse for doctors - which can actually be morons and antiscientific as well. in any case, if you have a scientific background, you'll hardly support bullshit like antivax or sex denialism. i really think our best bet for what's happening to tat is your list. again he could just say something, but I guess you'd have to be a patron to get some inside look.

[RikkiTikkiTavi]

So what's the chain of reasoning that has landed us here? I think it's maybe something like:

• Down with the patriarchy

• Trans women are an attempt by men to colonise womens spaces

• The left embraces trans rights

• The lwft is an illiberal cult that uses cancellation to squash dissent

• In fact, the left is just the patriarchy in disguise

• The left is now pushing vaccination the same way it pushes trans rights

• Therefore down with vaccination

It's the leap from radical feminism to antivax that I'm trying to make sense of for now, that's already plenty for me to be wrapping my tiny mind around!

there is gender critical women who are antivax, i've seen them on spinster and ovarit. but they're like 30% of the whole group. and most of the antivax ones are not left wing at all lol. also, antivaxxers, regardless of political ideologies, don't really have a grasp of how science work, but I guess they're ashamed of their ignorance so they pretend they know more than actual scientists? which they confuse for doctors - which can actually be morons and antiscientific as well. in any case, if you have a scientific background, you'll hardly support bullshit like antivax or sex denialism.

It is a puzzler right?

We can also consider if there are similarities between the groups 'radical feminist' and 'antivaxers'.

Oppression
Patriarchy and trans activists are oppressing the rad fems (obviously, women in general, but rad fems in particular).
Vaccine mandates are oppressing the antivaxers. (I am pretty sure the 'antimask' and 'covid is a hoax' crowd are also inside the bubble that is antivax).

The Villains (as in who is doing the oppressing)
Patriarchy = male dominant culture
Trans activists = trans dominant culture - which again is mostly coming from male dominant culture
Vaccine mandators = government dominant entities - which given the worldwide patriarchy is also mostly male dominant culture

So yeah, the Gandolf's flow chart "patriarchy --> trans activism --> vaccines" seems to hold true.

The 'man' is out to get us.

[Z6IIAB]

yeah, I guess antivaxxers have quite the persecution complex thought, especially because conspiracy theory groups, pseudoscientific ones in particular, usually have that complex to mimic actual social movements to try and gain the "oppresed status". and eventually some protection by law to do their bullshit without consequences. like transactivism. it's still absurd tho, because antivax actions are actually harmful to the whole population, they're not being "oppresed" lol.

yeah I wish I had especified better... but I don't think radical feminsts are the 30% of antivax gender critical women I observed on the internet... I think they're even less bc a lot of gender critical women aren't radical feminists (no theory background) or even learning about it. but then again, on the internet, a lot of people that just generally agree women and men are called so exclusivelly because of sexual dichotomy in our especies, people that agree with the anti-sexual/reproductive-explotation-industries stance in general and people that think women and children should be safe from sexual harassesment in their sex-exclusive space do already claim to be radical feminists. but they're not heh, sometimes they don't even know about separatism, or think it's absurd. in any case, what I mean is, I wouldn't say gender critical is interchangeable with radical feminist. so you might wanna compare antivaxxers to the larger group of women who fight against transactivism's misogyny and homophobia, in that especific scenario you brought.

I think it's interesting thought, it makes sense.