May 30, 2022: Theynos 3

[Russly]

I'm trying to check whether the current One Piece chapter dropped yet, it's my tradition to do that after reading Sinfest each week! Chapter 1051 on the way, go check my other posts here where I mention One Piece and Kaiji. I've seen every Simpsons, every Family Guy, every American Dad, every South Park, and yes, every SpongeBob and even every Fairly Odd Parents. Including the crazy Flash animated ones that ended the final season with the introduction of Chloe. Anyway the One Piece is the love we have in each other's hearts.

-Russly

[ZozoCitizen]

Sorry for a long pause. Ended up being quite busy over the weekend. I read everyone's posts days ago. I didn't want to slight anyone by only replying to one or two people though. I also wanted to take the time to not only read what you wrote, but genuinely digest and think about it. Cut me some slack. There's a wall of text.
Anyway. Well. We did it, chums. This thread is the most active one in a long time. Why, this place is practically jumpin'. We're having a party in a graveyard here. I'm not gonna bother organizing all these quote snips 'cause it's a hassle and it's not like context is going to be lost from a deluge of posts in this incredibly active thread.[/sarcasm]

Snipped

I still don't follow the heels thing but I'm just gonna let it go 'cause I don't think it's really important. A metaphor that isn't landing with me is not the hill to die on. Especially when so many beautiful, scenic hills lay ahead.

That almost sounds like an insult. Wit, some might say. I've been cut. I'm bleeding. I've been accused, in the most oh-so-polite way, of focusing on negative things. Which reflects poorly upon me. Apparently. I find this exasperating since from my perspective I'm only discussing the topic at hand.
You generously left me an out though by adding an addendum stipulating that blanket statements about individuals are never accurate. I will never forget such charity. Infinite kindness at work.

Only a few sentences in and you've already lost me. Negotiations have broken down. It probably shouldn't surprise you at all that I consider the term 'cis' an insult. I would never ask anyone not to use it because forcing someone to adhere to petty pedantic personal rules of social engagement among complete strangers is presumptuous and silly. I feel it's important to treat others the way we wish to be treated, however. So go ahead if you must. Just know that I don't like it.
Anyway, continuing on. I appreciate your insight into the subject of gender identity. Contrary to how it may seem, I relish the opportunity to converse with someone whose beliefs and perspective are radically different from my own. It's a shame that most exchanges between factions these days are cruel games of trollish one-upmanship where the goal is not to seek understanding, but to snub and belittle the opposing party as much as possible. I don't like that. It is not a game I wish to play.

There's no need. I believe you. I'm sure the video exists. This isn't an interrogation of each paragraph where I'm obsessively trying to find any tiny detail or pedantic inconsistency in your statements which I can twist into a weapon. I want to assure you that this isn't *that* kind of conversation. I am in earnest. I don't hate you or even the group of teachers we are discussing. Not really. What I am is concerned about the welfare of children and questioning whether certain people are fit to educate them.

The summarized thrust of your argument seems to be: All knowledge is good knowledge. Would you say that's right? Therefore children can only benefit from knowing more. I have to concede that's not a bad place to stand.
My summarized argument remains: I don't trust the people giving the knowledge.

What's that mean? Are you trying to say I'm innocent? 'Cause I don't feel innocent. I feel like I've gazed into the single milky eye of terror here on the internet. T'was me who blinked. I am battered and scarred from the things I've seen. Which coincidentally might be a good argument against "All knowledge is good knowledge." There are plenty of things I wish I didn't know. I could have gone the rest of my life blissfully happy not knowing what a waifu was, for example.

Snipped

Hm. Perhaps you're right. The issue here is that we disagree on the how.

"A conspicuous few." It's always a few bad apples, isn't it? Always the unpleasant exception that gives everyone else a bad name. Blanket generalizations are an easy trap to fall into, but I don't think I'm wrong in calling out the majority of these 'teachers' as social activists with personal agendas. They are absolutely that. I am not the sort of person who consumes only the news I want, strokes my own ego, and then calls it a day. I looked hard for the pleasant exception. At least one teacher who had been recorded or talked about who seemed halfway sane. I couldn't find them. Not on tiktok (no surprise there), not in leftwing or rightwing news sources I follow, or on other forums I frequent. Is it possible that somewhere in Podunk, USA some kind soul toils outside the limelight? Earnestly trying to do some modest amount of good? Maybe. I guess. If they're out there then my apologies to that unsung saint. Couldn't find 'em though. I'll concede that it's not truly fair for me to make claims or form opinions based only on circumstantial evidence, but let's be careful with that sentiment because I might expect the same of you.

So you're not American? I could use that to cast doubt on your point of view involving the American school system but that wouldn't be very cool of me, I think. Besides sometimes outside opinions are useful.

You bring up a good point that not just teachers are involved, but I believe there's a world of difference between a teacher and a parent. We cut right to the heart of my issue. My beef. My upsetti spaghetti. If parents want to teach their kids about identity and gender and sex and all that? Go ahead. Let 'em. It's their right. They are the legal guardians of those children. It is for the parents to decide what is best. What I definitely 100% believe is that some stranger, who is not family, should not have that same power. I may not agree with a given ideology or set of values, but I can hardly object if it's the parents doing it. How to deal with it is the parents decision and no one else.

That's... a deeply personal story. Thank you for sharing. A strong argument for "All knowledge is good knowledge" but I remain unconvinced.

I'm trying to check whether the current One Piece chapter dropped yet, it's my tradition to do that after reading Sinfest each week! Chapter 1051 on the way, go check my other posts here where I mention One Piece and Kaiji. I've seen every Simpsons, every Family Guy, every American Dad, every South Park, and yes, every SpongeBob and even every Fairly Odd Parents. Including the crazy Flash animated ones that ended the final season with the introduction of Chloe. Anyway the One Piece is the love we have in each other's hearts.

-Russly

Ah are you a manga reader too? I never read much manga. Maybe I should but comics of any kind just don't last long! Even if I really take my time and savor the artwork, I end up being finished with them quickly. I'm more of a paperback kind of person. I have downtime at work where I get a lot of reading done but I need something substantial to sink my teeth into. Perhaps if I brought a whole stack of manga? Haha. Seems like a lot though.

And here I thought the One Piece was massive gold hoard. Turns out it was the friends we made along the way. I think you might be my only friend here, Russly. Even if it's purely because we share a special bond that comes from mutual love of Japanese animation. I think I'll start watching One Piece just because of you.

[Pukje]

The heels metaphor is a Venn diagram put into words. It's not that complex.

Cis is a term that's been used for plenty of things besides gender. Why does it upset you? What synonym do you prefer?

'All knowledge is good knowledge' is an overly broad generalization. Knowing that sticking your tongue into a live socket is harmful = good. Knowing exactly what it feels like = not good. I leave figuring out why as an exercise for the reader. You can (hopefully?) do it.

This isn't an interrogation of each paragraph where I'm obsessively trying to find any tiny detail or pedantic inconsistency in your statements which I can twist into a weapon. I want to assure you that this isn't *that* kind of conversation. I am in earnest.

That's terrible news. You appear to be reading into about half of what I say as me trying to be mean to you in some way. If this is your earnest, then it's no surprise you find constructive discussions online to be so rare.

[thinayr]

Haven't checked in with sinfest in a while and wow, Tat - Your comics just feel obsessed and angry.

I'm married to an educator who works at a charter school that was built from the ground up to rethink the issues inherent to "traditional" school approaches... A ton of talent and passion for helping children become confident, capable humans. And it's amazing. Kids get internships when they are sophomores, they have support from parents, teachers and peers to take ownership of their lives and be treated as humans - not just potted plants in desks.

If you took a tour of the school, you'd see a lot of kids expressing themselves in non traditional ways - dressing however they want, experimenting with gender, piercings, music, whatever. You'd also find kids that are running their own businesses, getting grants for their projects, and a lot of talented artists. It's inspiring as fuck.

I read your comics of reptile teachers with evil agendas... and I think how your comic was once metaphorical – a humorous mirror with enough distortion to make one stop and think deeper. But now you are carving your opinions in stone - and portraying vast populations of people as less than human. Disposable... If your comics were a political manifesto leading to action those actions would be brutal. A Texas man killed a bunch of 4th graders and their teachers... in the world of sinfest this man would be a hero. That's fucked up, Tat.

I can only determine that you've slipped into the alternate reality you've created in your comics. I think you've lost touch with your basic humanity, at least the recognition that while we ARE influenced and manipulated by the agendas of large interests - that everyday people are human beings, trying their best in a world full of division and hate.

Your self-righteous disregard for other humans is as warped as any of the villains you've created.

I've read sinfest for like, 15 years... I respect your work - I think you've captured profound truths in the situations you illustrate. But brother, stay human, if even one human has no value - none of us do.

[ZozoCitizen]

The heels metaphor is a Venn diagram put into words. It's not that complex.

Cis is a term that's been used for plenty of things besides gender. Why does it upset you? What synonym do you prefer?

'All knowledge is good knowledge' is an overly broad generalization. Knowing that sticking your tongue into a live socket is harmful = good. Knowing exactly what it feels like = not good. I leave figuring out why as an exercise for the reader. You can (hopefully?) do it.

This isn't an interrogation of each paragraph where I'm obsessively trying to find any tiny detail or pedantic inconsistency in your statements which I can twist into a weapon. I want to assure you that this isn't *that* kind of conversation. I am in earnest.

That's terrible news. You appear to be reading into about half of what I say as me trying to be mean to you in some way. If this is your earnest, then it's no surprise you find constructive discussions online to be so rare.

Oh I'm well aware of its origins. The thing is the line between Cis and non-Cis is only drawn between Trans people and... literally everyone else. Gay people can be Cis. Despite this fact it's mainly used as an catch-all insult towards anyone outside of the LGBT. A pointless label for degenerate Twitter denizens to put on all the normies who don't share their bizarre values. As though being a part of 99.9% of humanity is something that requires an explanation and a category. Absurd.
What would I prefer? I have no preferences aside from not wanting to be called by their special little putdown.

Haha! You're a card. I like that. Shows guts. I believe in being respectful to others but being *too* respectful just makes someone a doormat. You absolutely should bite back at me if I say something you don't approve of.
Unfortunately we've ventured into the swampy bog of semantics. You know darn well I meant knowledge in the sense of potentially useful information. It would take an utter fool or a toddler to stick their tongue into a light socket. That's too extreme an example to be in the spirit of what I said.

You did though. You were being waspish. You're doing it now. Not that I hold it against you. After all, we're basically enemies. I am genuinely sad that I am in opposition of you. I wish we could all hug it out and be friends. Probably not going to happen though.
Given some of my experiences online I would say that since you haven't called me a bigot, told me to end my life, threatened to end it for me, or denounced me as pure evil... I would say this interaction has been a smashing success by my standards. A triumph of diplomacy for all involved.
If you've truly had friendly constructive conversations with right-wingers, terfs, or anyone else you consider ideologically opposed to you I would be immensely interested to know how that played out. What exactly did you discuss? Is there anything in particular you think contributed to peaceful discourse?

[ZozoCitizen]

Haven't checked in with sinfest in a while and wow, Tat - Your comics just feel obsessed and angry.

I'm married to an educator who works at a charter school that was built from the ground up to rethink the issues inherent to "traditional" school approaches... A ton of talent and passion for helping children become confident, capable humans. And it's amazing. Kids get internships when they are sophomores, they have support from parents, teachers and peers to take ownership of their lives and be treated as humans - not just potted plants in desks.

If you took a tour of the school, you'd see a lot of kids expressing themselves in non traditional ways - dressing however they want, experimenting with gender, piercings, music, whatever. You'd also find kids that are running their own businesses, getting grants for their projects, and a lot of talented artists. It's inspiring as fuck.

I read your comics of reptile teachers with evil agendas... and I think how your comic was once metaphorical – a humorous mirror with enough distortion to make one stop and think deeper. But now you are carving your opinions in stone - and portraying vast populations of people as less than human. Disposable... If your comics were a political manifesto leading to action those actions would be brutal. A Texas man killed a bunch of 4th graders and their teachers... in the world of sinfest this man would be a hero. That's fucked up, Tat.

I can only determine that you've slipped into the alternate reality you've created in your comics. I think you've lost touch with your basic humanity, at least the recognition that while we ARE influenced and manipulated by the agendas of large interests - that everyday people are human beings, trying their best in a world full of division and hate.

Your self-righteous disregard for other humans is as warped as any of the villains you've created.

I've read sinfest for like, 15 years... I respect your work - I think you've captured profound truths in the situations you illustrate. But brother, stay human, if even one human has no value - none of us do.

Obsessed and angry? I've been under the impression that no one hits softer than Tat. The man keeps his work startingly clean in an era where that standard has gone out of style. No profanity and no real violence. All the edges are round in this neighborhood. Tat is a marshmallow among political pundits.

I would dearly love to believe that your story about that charter school is true. In fact, if only it were! What a genuinely wonderful thing that would be. It'd shut critics like me right up and deservedly so.
Time will tell if the children exposed to the 'reptile teachers' benefit from their education or if it adversely affects them in some unforseen way. They might laugh off those years and move on with no issue or they might come resent those teachers. No way to know at this point.

Okay now you're revealed as a lunatic. At what point has Tat ever condoned school shootings? That's insane. That's an absolutely wild accusation to throw his way. Please show me the comic that gave you this impression.

"Stay human." See, this is where we're at now. You're not human unless you have the same ideology? Unbelievable.

[Pukje]

What would I prefer? I have no preferences aside from not wanting to be called by their special little putdown.

So what you're saying is, using 'cis' to mean 'not trans' in the context that wants to make the distinction between the two upsets you because people on Twitter use 'cis' in a derogatory manner. Can't say I relate to that, but fair enough - even though not proposing an alternative is somewhat counter-productive.

You know darn well I meant knowledge in the sense of potentially useful information. It would take an utter fool or a toddler to stick their tongue into a light socket. That's too extreme an example to be in the spirit of what I said.

No I actually didn't. The colorful example is specifically to avoid being further bogged down by semantic nuance. Knowledge and mental tools such as constructive thinking are like water and a glass to hold it in.

So to be perfectly clear, no, I am not advocating that all knowledge should be presented to kids at all ages, which is where this discussion originally came from. However, pearl-clutching responses to the topic of gender being mentioned in educational settings is the other extreme - which is why I was aiming to highlight the non sexy parts of the topic, and the usefulness in having - hopefully - thought provoking discussions in age appropriate format instead of yanking a kid out of the class and terminating the discussion immediately because gender got mentioned. All in all, I'm really not a fan of 'follow the dogma, do not question, do not discuss' type of narratives.

And of course I'm being waspish. It's almost as if one of us wrote something about a powder keg of a conversation in the middle of what, up to that point, would appear to have been a fairly mild mannered exchange. You can't have possibly expected to not be seen as something of a provocative twat after that point.

Is there anything in particular you think contributed to peaceful discourse?

Not acting like a provocative twat has worked wonders. Perhaps you should give it a shot.

[Russly]

You aren't supposed to read them and finish after the binge, you read the ones that are to be kept up with once current.... I think there is gold and booze and stuff too supposedly! Lost history, untold treasures, all in... well, you get the idea. I would also potentially indicate that Texas man mentioned, in Sinfest world is no hero. Sinfest's Tex is fairly different it seems. I'm not sure how this got nasty on Tat again too but at least he isn't throwing out ban hammers for a little bit. "Of course I'm being waspish" is new school enough to slide. What's weird is the intersection of validity in all the opinions expressed currently. Everybody is speaking from experience.... Also I'm skimming everything.

My personal take on the latest strips. For one the call out on the diaper guy balloon, that float is guaranteed in Tat's dreams. Don't get me started on my recent adventures in the Transformers world... I will say Cartoon Network is officially for the kids since Steven Universe ended. However, having watched Steven Universe the whole way through, I can confirm I do not hate the show for the gayness, which they do well, I hate the show because it starts with a whole season of him prancing around as a kid. Lol jk, the rest of it is legit. Also the guy in today's is reminiscent of Francis although sadly is obviously not. The complexity of narrative overlap is overlooked. This is not the fault of Tat, however. He is right to observe the behavior people currently exhibit. Yet, when does the focus shift to the loftier resolve? When do the zombies find a way to calm their tits? And when do the people who say gender isn't fluid calm their tits too? I ponder these at night.

-Russly

[Russly]

See? I wasn't kidding about the baby guy float! I wonder how Tired Mama is feeling about this one lmao.

-Russly

[Russly]

Watch a thousand Jesus parade go by and Seymour would fawn over it and then what hahaha!

-Russly

[Tired Mama]

See? I wasn't kidding about the baby guy float! I wonder how Tired Mama is feeling about this one lmao.

-Russly

Honestly? Fucking exhausted. I have been sporatically lurking at the best of times and mostly following the comics insane downward spiral via the reddit page to avoid giving Tats even the tiny blips of site traffic.

It's a god-damn trainwreck that I wish I could look away from. But alas the human condition makes that so hard to actually do.

Nothing quite like having a once favorite daily read turn into a zealous sounding-board that decrys a solid chunk of your personal identity as the worst thing in the world. Woo.

[Just some ice]

What's weird about baby-guy is the comics show a loooooong history of subtly suggesting Tats is really into mommy-fetish relationships.

So you know, implications of self-hate.

[Russly]

I've been gone all month but given that today I return to a dildo rocket bat I can't help but wonder if maybe he's throwing the baby guy out there in confidence. This comic is more like a meet up for WA-- Webcomics Anonymous.

-Russly