2019-03-21. Depression 29

Elentirmo · Post by **Elentirmo** » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:51 am

There is always a worser job.

DrCurry · Post by **DrCurry** » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:55 pm

Maybe Sapphire should go help out Abby with crowd control...?

(Though why is a demon doing a job she hates? Isnâ€™t the whole point of being a demon doing exactly what they want?)

Elentirmo · Post by **Elentirmo** » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:34 pm

Itâ€™s not called the Hellhole for nothing.

Pylgrim · Post by **Pylgrim** » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:12 am

Sometimes I wonder whether Ishida has ever spoken to a stripper--or to more than one with a bad experience.

I am good friends with one and she is friends with all the others at the place she works. According to her, only a couple among them all dislike or hate their job, but those were usually the ones that quit soon. All the others either like their job (they feel empowered by it, have fun with it, consider it good easy money, etc) or are neutral about it, treating it with professional detachment. They may feel contempt toward some of their worst customers but in the end, they have the last laugh, as they made those men part with big chunks of their hard-earned money without really giving much in exchange other than some sweet lies. Many of them put themselves through college doing this and would have not been able to do so otherwise.

According to her, experiences vary from place to place. The seedier ones get the worst patrons (abusive, drunken, etc), but the good ones very rarely experience bad incidents.

I understand that the focal point of these strips is the unchecked, sexist male behaviour, but when strippers are portrayed as bitter victims or robotic dolls, judgment is being cast against all the real women who chose to be strippers and are content with their choice. While striving to be an ally of women, one must be careful not to arrogantly decide /in their stead/ what is good for them and what not.

Alethea85 · Post by **Alethea85** » Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:41 am

Your friend is friends with all the other strippers? That is unusual. There's usually a lot of drama in clubs.

Aside from the ones she is aware of that hate the job, the ones who are treating it with "professional detachment" are likely experiencing dissociation. Dissociative disorders are extremely common in sex workers.

These strips are overflowing with an array of three-dimensional women with agency and personality. Including Sapphire. If you think she is a "bitter victim", you are the one casting judgment.

Pylgrim · Post by **Pylgrim** » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:24 pm

Your friend is friends with all the other strippers? That is unusual. There's usually a lot of drama in clubs.

Haha, fair enough, that's correct. I should have said "acquaintances". What I meant is that she's got to know several points of view within the industry.

the ones who are treating it with "professional detachment" are likely experiencing dissociation.

Maybe? I imagine some do. But if I hear a woman saying "I don't mind this", I'm certainly not going to jump to say "no honey, what you feel is actually this".

These strips are overflowing with an array of three-dimensional women with agency and personality. Including Sapphire. If you think she is a "bitter victim", you are the one casting judgment.

Note that I didn't say "women" of the strip, I restricted my commentary to "strippers". Also, what's exactly Sapphire's third dimension? She hates her job and her customers yet she won't quit her job, so she just acts aloof and silently relishes when other women do something against men. That's like two dimensions at best? Where's this agency you speak of?

I don't doubt she could become three dimensional in the future but so far she exists solely as a negative commentary on a whole subset of real women who willingly (and in many cases, happily) have chosen a certain path in life.

Z6IIAB · Post by **Z6IIAB** » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:53 pm

Alethea85 · Post by **Alethea85** » Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:15 am

Some women choose to stay in abusive relationships and defend partners who put bruises all over their face. I don't think criticism of domestic violence is dismissive or condescending to those women. You are in the wrong place if you want to defend oppression in the name of "being an ally".

Pylgrim · Post by **Pylgrim** » Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:57 am

But I'm not defending oppression. I'll condemn any case of oppression against women--in the sex industry or wherever-- with all my capacity. What I am arguing is that when stripping is portrayed negatively in its entirety you disregard the agency of women who made an informed and perfectly willing choice from which they profit and even get positive experiences.

To follow your example, I have no qualms condemning every possible instance of domestic violence, nor am I unaware that some women become conditioned to side with their attackers. However, if you attempt to portray /every marriage/ as a case of unaddressed domestic violence then you are the one disregarding the agency and choice of real women.

Honestly speaking, Sinfest sometimes errs a bit too much towards that side, neglecting to portray positive and constructive romantic (or otherwise) relationships between men and women (other than that of Fuchsia and Criminy, a character so unidimensionally chaste and innocent that he is basically a child). Sexuality itself is exclusively portrayed as a positive interaction when it occurs between women.

If Sinfest truly wants to make a difference among the people who need to change their attitudes and ways of thinking (men), it needs to provide positive role models. Any educator worth their salt will tell you that positive reinforcement (showing what is good behaviour and encouraging reenactment) is remarkably more effective than negative reinforcement (screaming "NO!" and humiliating/punishing lack of understanding).

Z6IIAB · Post by **Z6IIAB** » Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:28 am

sigh

Geist · Post by **Geist** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:42 am

Please, tell us more about how to be a proper female ally while positively/romantically portraying or positively reinforcing objectification...

Maybe the issue is not with the comic, but with the kind of programming that teaches people such as your associates to see objectification for pay as empowering?

Cheat · Post by **Cheat** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:40 am

I think the issue is more that Ishida has stuck to a fairly simplistic glance into this complex issue and while I don't expect him to remake the world into his vision via webcomic, it doesn't change the fact that a lot of nuance is lost and positive ideas and changes cannot be made, leading to repetition in characterisation and comic strip ideas.
I mean, can the johnbies become better people? And how?
As for the whole 'positive portrayal of sex work/objectification' you guys think Pylgrim is communicating, I think they are simply pointing out that listening/talking to women, particularly sex workers, is good if you want to help them and since they are human beings with agency, some basic respect is deserved.

Geist · Post by **Geist** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:32 am

Strange that they want to be heard by having you speak on their behalf, human beings with agency that they are.

CopperRose · Post by **CopperRose** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:37 am

This could answer the question.

Sapphire made a deal with the devil at some point in her life and is now iron clad to work at the Hell Hole whether she likes it or not. As we seen in previous stories with the orphaned girl, getting out is much harder than getting in.

I know people make a conscious decision to get into sex work all the time, I know being a former dancer myself, but there are others who don't. They're force to use their assets to make money for others (pimp, abusive partner, sex trafficker) or they are living on skid roll and this is the only income they have the skills for.

And even if you go in on your own without force doesn't mean you won't get jaded over time like any other job and just because you hate your job don't mean you can suddenly leave and, find a better one conveniently around the corner. Sapphire's day is coming.

Also hello everyone. I'm originally from the old forum, shortly before it closed down. It's nice to meet you all.

DrCurry · Post by **DrCurry** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:33 am

Sapphire made a deal with the devil at some point in her life and is now iron clad to work at the Hell Hole whether she likes it or not.

Fair point. Though in this strip, the devil seems to have somewhat more complex motivations - he picked Blue and Fuschia out of the Hell Hole after Blue almost beat up a patron. (And Blue is still covering for Fuschia and others all the time, without it seeming to bother the D man.)

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