welcome to the fest

that's a lot to unpack

Loving how on the nose this is... I'm a new reader, started reading the comics a few days ago when a comic reviewer on tumblr made noise about it for being "terfy"..... of course I needed to get in on this.

I'm down to smack talk big pharma as much as the next guy... but hormone medication?

Is a man wanting smoother features, or a woman wanting rougher features really all that bad?

But as a straight white cis male who has soft features and likes to dress in feminine clothing, I may have a skewed perspective on this whole situation.

Plus my grandma needs to take hormone medication or else she will die. So, there's that.

The issue isn't hormone medication itself, but the lack of real informed consent about what it entails. People using it for cosmetics cannot predict its future effects, and big pharma actually refuses to research it. The increased risk of uterine cancer, heart attack and other factors in trans men is a big giveaway of what unchecked capitalism + drugs can do. They are literally giving it away without properly assessing the risks.

[quote="janelane"]The issue isn't hormone medication itself, but the lack of real informed consent about what it entails. People using it for cosmetics cannot predict its future effects, and big pharma actually refuses to research it. The increased risk of uterine cancer, heart attack and other factors in trans men is a big giveaway of what unchecked capitalism + drugs can do. They are literally giving it away without properly assessing the risks.[/quote]

You mean like Opioids? And yeah, the unregulated American medical industry is an evil industry that pushes pills on anyone with money regardless of what the pills do.

I mean breast implants can lead to cancer, but those are still the most performed cosmetic surgery, and most doctors don't even mention the health risks, and there are a lot more people with cancer causing breast implants than there are people going through hormone treatment.

Who ever said I thought breast implants were ethical?

I mean, if there's all this hoopla over hormones, the cry from people against implants should be deafening.

How strange... almost as if it's being... shut down? And censored? But who would ever want to censor radical feminists?

I would think that any unregulated capitalist system would try their damnedest to censor anyone who would impact their bottom line.

Like the meat industry spending millions to shut down the "green new deal" or the medical industry spending millions on pushing opioids over cheaper, more effective, and less addictive options, or the oil industry literally dismantling and burying electric cars.

Now yes, these are all major problems the U.S. is facing due to it's unregulated capitalism. The only issue is, Mermaids is a UK based organization, and the pills they would prescribe and the counseling they would give are free. So...

I hope SSmotzer remembers that the world doesn't sums up to USA or UK. Hormonization with the intent of changing healthy sexual puberty is harmful and I think we have enough research on the subject of hormones and the human body to back that up.

[quote="Z6IIAB"]I hope SSmotzer remembers that the world doesn't sums up to USA or UK. Hormonization with the intent of changing healthy sexual puberty is harmful and I think we have enough research on the subject of hormones and the human body to back that up.[/quote]

Yes, but we were mostly talking about the big pharma and Mermaids, which is a mostly US issue, and Mermaids is a UK based organisation. Besides, most other first world countries have free healthcare and the idea that hormone therapy in places like Norway are motivated by profit just does not add up.

But the health risk for transitioning after puberty is far greater than before puberty, and if a person is serious about transitioning, then it's in their best interest to do it before or during puberty.

There is not a lot of data on these kind of procedures, which is why more research is needed. Saying something like, "kids have gone through puberty since the dawn of man" isn't all that reassuring, and is an appeal to tradition and an appeal to nature fallacy, and is the exact kind of argument people use to say a woman should mate with a man and raise their children.

SSmotzer wrote:...and if a person is serious about transitioning, then it's in their best interest to do it before or during puberty.

I deeply encourage you to sit back and read that again. What I'm reading here in your statement, is that you believe that it's better for children to transition than those that might actually be closer to adult age. The fact that we don't even allow 18-year-olds to drink, or minors to get tattoos... the fact that the brain is not nearly fully formed in youth...

Do you really believe that a pre-pubescent child could be "serious about transitioning" enough to warrant adopting a chemical regimen that could cause serious health problems, and quite possibly sterilize them for life?

Honestly, I feel like medically transitioning children is child abuse, much as anti-vax parenting is.

SSmotzer wrote:

Z6IIAB wrote:I hope SSmotzer remembers that the world doesn't sums up to USA or UK. Hormonization with the intent of changing healthy sexual puberty is harmful and I think we have enough research on the subject of hormones and the human body to back that up.

Yes, but we were mostly talking about the big pharma and Mermaids, which is a mostly US issue, and Mermaids is a UK based organisation. Besides, most other first world countries have free healthcare and the idea that hormone therapy in places like Norway are motivated by profit just does not add up.

But the health risk for transitioning after puberty is far greater than before puberty, and if a person is serious about transitioning, then it's in their best interest to do it before or during puberty.

There is not a lot of data on these kind of procedures, which is why more research is needed. Saying something like, "kids have gone through puberty since the dawn of man" isn't all that reassuring, and is an appeal to tradition and an appeal to nature fallacy, and is the exact kind of argument people use to say a woman should mate with a man and raise their children.

Okey you did jump into a big stretch there from what I said, but let's make it fast:

1. We were talking about the hormonization of children here, and what the sunday panel was about. I think you've mixed it with the other discussion about the gender camp panel. For that matter, opiods are not as important on USA or UK as they are in the rest of the world, and eve if they were, that wouldn't diminish the importance of not messing with a healthy bodily function, especially one involving hormones BEFORE you have hard research to back it up. this is what happened the first time contraceptives were introduced, and women still die TO THIS DAY because of some poorly done pills that give them trombosis and such. Hence why they are taking their sweet time with the male contraceptive pill.

2. Hormonization and surgeries are a huge risk, and honestly a vast percentage of people that go throught that aren't happier, because it doesn't really change their sex. It can mess with their hormone inbalance, maybe make them develop more body hair or more boob fat, but in the end of the day it's not the same thing as having a full DNA programmed to alter your sex characterists according to the gamete you are able to produce. It's not even close to being functional. It's actually doing more harm than good. Those surgeries are laughble. They can provide a good aestetic, but all the maintenance is fairly different from that actual women have with their own bodies. And it has high risks of infection. Honestly, to someone with sex dysphoria, which a bunch of trans people don't even have nowadays, that can be quite upsetting. To see they tried to reach their goal but aren't even quite there. Listen, if someone has such a psychological distress over their perception of a healthy functional part of their bodies, you don't go and tell them to try to change that. You tell them to review their mentalities.

3. Dude, women don't have to fulfill their sexual system's purpuse, because that does depends on our hability to find a reasonable mate. And if we don't find someone we think are worth having a baby with, we shouldn't have children. At all. That's the beauty of sexual selection. It's not only on you, and it's not only on someone who wants you. But you shouldn't go ahead and STOP your body from doing what it does despite of your decision. Especially when there's nothing wrong with that. At all. And I'm even including intersex people, because their fight is to stop doctors from mutilating their genitalia when there's NO medical requirement for that aside from aesthetics reasons. One thing is fucking up with a normal natural thing that's out of your control and that's healthy. The other is rape rethoric and going against a woman's decision on the matter. Your example to push my reaseanable assement as similar to people that wanna force women to have children is not only a stretch, it's plain contradictory. You don't push people to do something with their bodies that they don't want to or that they don't need to in order for them to be healthy and functional. So you don't push women to have babies, and you don't push people to take hormones that will mess with their body functions or do surgeries that are purely aestitic and may risk their lives and the functionality of their sexual organs. That's explotation. That's abusive. That's not dealing with the actual problem with people that call themselves trans which is: why do you think a man can't be like that? why do you think a woman can't like what you do? Because they can. They do. You're not alone. Break the stereotype.

October wrote:

SSmotzer wrote:...and if a person is serious about transitioning, then it's in their best interest to do it before or during puberty.

I deeply encourage you to sit back and read that again. What I'm reading here in your statement, is that you believe that it's better for children to transition than those that might actually be closer to adult age. The fact that we don't even allow 18-year-olds to drink, or minors to get tattoos... the fact that the brain is not nearly fully formed in youth...

Do you really believe that a pre-pubescent child could be "serious about transitioning" enough to warrant adopting a chemical regimen that could cause serious health problems, and quite possibly sterilize them for life?

Honestly, I feel like medically transitioning children is child abuse, much as anti-vax parenting is.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

exactly. the younger the age the bigger the harm when it comes to hormonizing a child. especially when you're trying to go against their own body programming.

October wrote: I deeply encourage you to sit back and read that again. What I'm reading here in your statement, is that you believe that it's better for children to transition than those that might actually be closer to adult age. The fact that we don't even allow 18-year-olds to drink, or minors to get tattoos... the fact that the brain is not nearly fully formed in youth...

Do you really believe that a pre-pubescent child could be "serious about transitioning" enough to warrant adopting a chemical regimen that could cause serious health problems, and quite possibly sterilize them for life?

Honestly, I feel like medically transitioning children is child abuse, much as anti-vax parenting is.

We have the resources and the means to disable puberty all together, then induce puberty when we chose.

I believe that everyone should be genetically altered to have their puberty blocked and be born with both sets of genitalia, then when they believe they are ready to chose either, or neither, then induce their selected organ's puberty, or don't.

Of course the likely hood of that happening is practically zero. Too many people saying we shouldn't mess with nature, and that it's god's plan for people to be born the way they are.

I'm not saying we should transition children who are unsure, but we need more research into when a person can concretely say what they are. I knew what I wanted when I was about 12, I'm just lucky my biology lined up with my desires. Androgynous with just a hint of masculinity... Wish I could do something about my voice though. Too deep for my liking.