welcome to the fest

it's a type of sport, like skating on the water :v
gotta laugh at those made up labels. the most perplexing part is TRAs claiming radfems are the ones that came up with "terf" and etc lol

SWERF is a dismissive term literally thrown at women in and exited from prostitution, if they criticize the industry. I know several survivors of prostitution who at risk to their own safety and mental health have been fighting for abolition and exit services and they get called "SWERFs". That label really just means "abolitionist feminist". Everyone who supports the sex industry excludes all the women who want out or who got out and are now trying to help other women out and to shut the brutal shitshow down.
It's still disgusting how "SWERF" is leveled at survivors to dismiss their stories and their political analysis. Any survivor of violence knows that someone denying your experience of trauma can be almost as painful as the traumatization itself. That's why the number of prostitution survivors speaking out against the industry is much smaller than the actual number of survivors who would want to, but can't, because of this toxic atmosphere and the very real risk of attacks on their jobs and even their lives.

Foxgloves wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:55 am

SWERF is a dismissive term literally thrown at women in and exited from prostitution, if they criticize the industry. I know several survivors of prostitution who at risk to their own safety and mental health have been fighting for abolition and exit services and they get called "SWERFs". That label really just means "abolitionist feminist". Everyone who supports the sex industry excludes all the women who want out or who got out and are now trying to help other women out and to shut the brutal shitshow down.
It's still disgusting how "SWERF" is leveled at survivors to dismiss their stories and their political analysis. Any survivor of violence knows that someone denying your experience of trauma can be almost as painful as the traumatization itself. That's why the number of prostitution survivors speaking out against the industry is much smaller than the actual number of survivors who would want to, but can't, because of this toxic atmosphere and the very real risk of attacks on their jobs and even their lives.

As a former erotic dancer can I thumbs up this?

A sex worker might have [or sadly she made have not] chose to go into the life but, she didn't choose to be dehumanized. When she wants out because of it, men [and even some women] flip their shit and call SWERF. She's suppose to love her job, love her johns/customers, love the abuse, because they love it. Anytime you point out something wrong about an activity or lifestyle someone loves they will naturally go on the offensive.

I also like the flippant response you get when things happen. One time, I complained to a male friend that one of the customers were being too hands on during a dance which was against the rules. The customer got all snippy with me when I called him out on it and I had to get the bouncer involved. The friend was like "Well, you should expect that to happen to you." I wonder if a police officer ever told a bank teller after an armed robbery "Well, you should expect that to happen to you."?

Foxgloves wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:55 am

SWERF is a dismissive term literally thrown at women in and exited from prostitution, if they criticize the industry. I know several survivors of prostitution who at risk to their own safety and mental health have been fighting for abolition and exit services and they get called "SWERFs". That label really just means "abolitionist feminist". Everyone who supports the sex industry excludes all the women who want out or who got out and are now trying to help other women out and to shut the brutal shitshow down.
It's still disgusting how "SWERF" is leveled at survivors to dismiss their stories and their political analysis. Any survivor of violence knows that someone denying your experience of trauma can be almost as painful as the traumatization itself. That's why the number of prostitution survivors speaking out against the industry is much smaller than the actual number of survivors who would want to, but can't, because of this toxic atmosphere and the very real risk of attacks on their jobs and even their lives.

Yes, and I agree! I was mocking the dumbass slur TRAs have invented because it's such bullshit to viciously label women who actually help sex trade survivors - or are even survivors themselves, like you said - as the "villains" in the story. Thank you for clarifying it so cleary and succinctly.

As a former erotic dancer can I thumbs up this?

A sex worker might have [or sadly she made have not] chose to go into the life but, she didn't choose to be dehumanized. When she wants out because of it, men [and even some women] flip their shit and call SWERF. She's suppose to love her job, love her johns/customers, love the abuse, because they love it. Anytime you point out something wrong about an activity or lifestyle someone loves they will naturally go on the offensive.

I also like the flippant response you get when things happen. One time, I complained to a male friend that one of the customers were being too hands on during a dance which was against the rules. The customer got all snippy with me when I called him out on it and I had to get the bouncer involved. The friend was like "Well, you should expect that to happen to you." I wonder if a police officer ever told a bank teller after an armed robbery "Well, you should expect that to happen to you."?

The more I'm talking to women in places where brothels and strip clubs are an accepted part of the culture the more I feel like women just get to choose between different kinds of stigma and dehumanization. Being a criminal is horrible, but if you're a "worker" lots of people think you're literally born loving nothing more than getting men off. They talk like there are two kinds of women: "Normal women" and "those nymphos". And "those nymphos" supposedly find their "calling" in the sex trade. And like you illustrated that leads to a new kind of victim blaming, cuz supposedly some women are just made to put up with boundary violating male behaviour and if they express their boundaries the johns get mad or even violent and the pro sex trade crowd tell her "if you're not professional or tough enough for this, find something else to do". I've hear very similar things from a lot of women.

Hope you're doing well wherever you are now.

There's sort of a gross intersection of things with the whole "sex work is work" thing. Because it is work, in the sense that it's a form of labor. In an ideal world, sex work would just be a job as shitty as any other customer service position, the performance of a particular skill in exchange for money.

The thing is, sex work is not treated as a service, it's treated as a trade good. Sex-buyers aren't buying the time and expertise of a prostitute because they need sex work done the way they'd hire an electrician to rewire an outlet in their home, they're renting a body the way they'd rent a car: it is there to use in whatever manner they see fit, and they can do whatever they want with it so long as they pay the company that owns it.

The perception is that they are purchasing a body for them to use however they want, and that sex workers are expected to abide by it. "You asked for it"/"You should expect that to happen" is the response you get from people who buy into that same mindset. "He paid to use your body, you can't get mad at him for using it wrong."

...I just realized that I don't have a good conclusion here, so I guess that's just an observation? Sex work COULD be just work, but our culture (possibly our species) doesn't let it just be work? It sucks, is what I'm saying.

Tater wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:18 am

There's sort of a gross intersection of things with the whole "sex work is work" thing. Because it is work, in the sense that it's a form of labor. In an ideal world, sex work would just be a job as shitty as any other customer service position, the performance of a particular skill in exchange for money.

The thing is, sex work is not treated as a service, it's treated as a trade good. Sex-buyers aren't buying the time and expertise of a prostitute because they need sex work done the way they'd hire an electrician to rewire an outlet in their home, they're renting a body the way they'd rent a car: it is there to use in whatever manner they see fit, and they can do whatever they want with it so long as they pay the company that owns it.

The perception is that they are purchasing a body for them to use however they want, and that sex workers are expected to abide by it. "You asked for it"/"You should expect that to happen" is the response you get from people who buy into that same mindset. "He paid to use your body, you can't get mad at him for using it wrong."

...I just realized that I don't have a good conclusion here, so I guess that's just an observation? Sex work COULD be just work, but our culture (possibly our species) doesn't let it just be work? It sucks, is what I'm saying.

Here's your conclusion: "sex work" is not work, it's prostitution, it's the sexual exploitation of females bodies by men, and often includes violence and misogyny. it's in the root of patriarchy. it's bad for women and children everywhere.

What you are trying to justify as "in-an-ideal-world-sex-work" is what those ladies in "massage" houses do to guys when they pay for a "full" "massage": a handjob and a possible finger up your ass that may be called "p-spot". That ain't prostitution, thought is pretty undignified and unecessary for the lady working with it.

This is an anti-prostitution forum, my dude. Don't play naive. I've been here for years and I can smell your bullshit in 2.5 sec. GTFO.

Tater wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:18 am

There's sort of a gross intersection of things with the whole "sex work is work" thing. Because it is work, in the sense that it's a form of labor. In an ideal world, sex work would just be a job as shitty as any other customer service position, the performance of a particular skill in exchange for money.

The thing is, sex work is not treated as a service, it's treated as a trade good. Sex-buyers aren't buying the time and expertise of a prostitute because they need sex work done the way they'd hire an electrician to rewire an outlet in their home, they're renting a body the way they'd rent a car: it is there to use in whatever manner they see fit, and they can do whatever they want with it so long as they pay the company that owns it.

The perception is that they are purchasing a body for them to use however they want, and that sex workers are expected to abide by it. "You asked for it"/"You should expect that to happen" is the response you get from people who buy into that same mindset. "He paid to use your body, you can't get mad at him for using it wrong."

...I just realized that I don't have a good conclusion here, so I guess that's just an observation? Sex work COULD be just work, but our culture (possibly our species) doesn't let it just be work? It sucks, is what I'm saying.

Disagree wholeheartedly. In an ideal world sex is it's own reward and only had on the basis of mutual attraction and on eye level. Sex should never be like a shitty job. It shouldn't be labour. It's joyous to both participants or it aint happening. I study johns so I know they're not interested in paying only to access women who want them so much they'd have sex for free (defeats the purpose of payment, payment only exists because attraction isn't mutual), they're not interested in respecting women's boundaries. Women outside of prostitution are increasingly demanding their boundaries are respected. The allur of prostitution for men is that here they can leave respect at the door. There'd be no prostitution if men respected women. No man could touch a woman he knew wasn't into him if applied basic empathy.

I don't see how the fact that you can pay to use someone's body gets any better without gender roles...

Recently the leftist magazine Current Affairs published an essay about how the author and other leftists find *restaurants* personally uncomfortable, because you're using a servant who you don't know, a complete stranger-- you don't know their financial or life situation, but you are free to treat them like they're yours for the evening. I felt it did an excellent job conveying how capitalism creates alienating situations of ad-hoc servitude. Of course you'll find little to no prostitution/porn-critical voices in CA because it was created and is run by a dude.

betterway wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:03 pm

I don't see how the fact that you can pay to use someone's body gets any better without gender roles...

Recently the leftist magazine Current Affairs published an essay about how the author and other leftists find *restaurants* personally uncomfortable, because you're using a servant who you don't know, a complete stranger-- you don't know their financial or life situation, but you are free to treat them like they're yours for the evening. I felt it did an excellent job conveying how capitalism creates alienating situations of ad-hoc servitude. Of course you'll find little to no prostitution/porn-critical voices in CA because it was created and is run by a dude.

wow, they are so fucking hypocritical. not my left.

Z6IIAB wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:13 pm

Tater wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:18 am

There's sort of a gross intersection of things with the whole "sex work is work" thing. Because it is work, in the sense that it's a form of labor. In an ideal world, sex work would just be a job as shitty as any other customer service position, the performance of a particular skill in exchange for money.

The thing is, sex work is not treated as a service, it's treated as a trade good. Sex-buyers aren't buying the time and expertise of a prostitute because they need sex work done the way they'd hire an electrician to rewire an outlet in their home, they're renting a body the way they'd rent a car: it is there to use in whatever manner they see fit, and they can do whatever they want with it so long as they pay the company that owns it.

The perception is that they are purchasing a body for them to use however they want, and that sex workers are expected to abide by it. "You asked for it"/"You should expect that to happen" is the response you get from people who buy into that same mindset. "He paid to use your body, you can't get mad at him for using it wrong."

...I just realized that I don't have a good conclusion here, so I guess that's just an observation? Sex work COULD be just work, but our culture (possibly our species) doesn't let it just be work? It sucks, is what I'm saying.

Here's your conclusion: "sex work" is not work, it's prostitution, it's the sexual exploitation of females bodies by men, and often includes violence and misogyny. it's in the root of patriarchy. it's bad for women and children everywhere.

What you are trying to justify as "in-an-ideal-world-sex-work" is what those ladies in "massage" houses do to guys when they pay for a "full" "massage": a handjob and a possible finger up your ass that may be called "p-spot". That ain't prostitution, thought is pretty undignified and unecessary for the lady working with it.

This is an anti-prostitution forum, my dude. Don't play naive. I've been here for years and I can smell your bullshit in 2.5 sec. GTFO.

To me, “Sex work is work” is a mantra than an actual definition. Repeated again and again to make those who patronize feel you are there by choice and that THEY don’t have to feel guilty about it. Reinforcing the sex worker she/he should be happy and enjoy their work to give the illusion that whatever the John/Jane do to them is OK.

I have to also disagree with this perception, if I rent a car and wreck it due to drunk driving then tell the rental service the next day “Hey, I paid to drive this so, you can’t get mad that I wreck it.” I’m sure they will expect me to pay for the damages or even see jail time. It’s the same with sex work. Yes, you paid but, you have to adhere to the contract/agreement when the money is exchange. You don’t get to rape or beat the prostitute and send her to the ER because you paid for sex. You don’t get to molest dancers during a lap dance when the dancer says no.

I’m sure when a prostitute robs a costumer, the costumer would be the first to run to the police because that wasn’t a part of the deal, so why the other way around? But, then again we live in a world where people are beating cashiers nearly to death when their orders are wrong and are surprised when they get arrested. For those who patronize sex work and have these behaviors, change them. You are not doing sex work any favors by stripping away the humanity and dignity of the sex worker.

Foxgloves wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:37 pm

As a former erotic dancer can I thumbs up this?

A sex worker might have [or sadly she made have not] chose to go into the life but, she didn't choose to be dehumanized. When she wants out because of it, men [and even some women] flip their shit and call SWERF. She's suppose to love her job, love her johns/customers, love the abuse, because they love it. Anytime you point out something wrong about an activity or lifestyle someone loves they will naturally go on the offensive.

I also like the flippant response you get when things happen. One time, I complained to a male friend that one of the customers were being too hands on during a dance which was against the rules. The customer got all snippy with me when I called him out on it and I had to get the bouncer involved. The friend was like "Well, you should expect that to happen to you." I wonder if a police officer ever told a bank teller after an armed robbery "Well, you should expect that to happen to you."?

The more I'm talking to women in places where brothels and strip clubs are an accepted part of the culture the more I feel like women just get to choose between different kinds of stigma and dehumanization. Being a criminal is horrible, but if you're a "worker" lots of people think you're literally born loving nothing more than getting men off. They talk like there are two kinds of women: "Normal women" and "those nymphos". And "those nymphos" supposedly find their "calling" in the sex trade. And like you illustrated that leads to a new kind of victim blaming, cuz supposedly some women are just made to put up with boundary violating male behaviour and if they express their boundaries the johns get mad or even violent and the pro sex trade crowd tell her "if you're not professional or tough enough for this, find something else to do". I've hear very similar things from a lot of women.

Hope you're doing well wherever you are now.

Thanks and I'm doing fine. I work in a library now a different change of pace but I like it.

I agree with you on all of this. The nympho label, I’ve heard it before. There are even songs in the 2000s and videos that say the sex worker will do anything money or not. And when the sex worker during the money exchange tells them what is allow and not, some customers start screaming the cake is a lie.

Some do think if you like sex and lots of it what better profession than sex work, you chose it because you enjoy it. Wrong! You don’t know how that person got tangled up in sex work and, you don’t know if they really enjoy it or just see it just an income and nothing more.

Another thing I would like to touch upon is the "predatory" nature sex workers are said to have. That we are nothing but "gold diggers" fleecing men out of their money because we know sex is their kryptonite. I never liked the whole women are in control of their sexuality but men are not so, they get a pass and women do not.

I don’t have an answer to solve this as well except to tell those who treat sex workers like this to stop and show the same respect you would someone who works in an office or some other non-sex work job.