February 26, MMXXI 45

[SinfestReader]

I'm confused. What is your stance Tatsuya?

Do you support people doing harm, or do you want to find a way past violence as an answer?

I see plenty of references to people putting aside their differences in your comic. Then I see this 'Don't rat out people who spread hate' in these comics, and I feel like I don't understand your message.

We aren't going to be able to get beyond our differences, if people allow hatred to continue. Most hate comes from people doing harm, or people nursing ancient grievances.

What is your alternative to shining a light on hatred and bigotry and racism? Do you not want to end these evils? What do you see as a path beyond them if it is not to expose and educate people out of these unevolved coping mechanisms?

Silence in the face of evil is complicity.

A!

[Russly]

The comic is not meant as a stance on these matters. It is merely a retelling and forecast of the story thus far. I think in some cases that, yes, it's clear we get there's an underlying message. Right now? Not so much....

This does leave us at an impasse. However, in this case I may share my sympathies to Tat as a fellow oft-misunderstood individual. One of those cases where the message is clear (we have an authoritative government which pretends to be lovey dovey and kills everyone behind our back) yet can get lost easily.

I think you're right, the message gets muddled by the openendedness. But, I wouldn't take that as a stance. It seems more like some of the guesswork or even philosophy that's simply a part of the comic. The stuff Tat himself might not get why he adds in.

-Russly

[Z6IIAB]

I think it's blatantly obvious tat's criticizing the demonization of women who don't conform to gendequeer beliefs. especially on plataforms like twitter... and also irl. there's women getting fired and deplataformed, even violently attacked and killed because they don't believe a person with a dick can be a woman. that's fascist-like behavior and all of those TRAs present it without fail. women being adult female human beings should be obvious to anyone inteligent, not a "hate crime" punishible by ostracization, violence or death. that's it.

ps.: ofc, I think gay men are also being given the same treatment nowadays, thought not as viciously, which would include men in the line of fire of the "woke" brigade. I'm sure there's more to it, but given the radical feminist background of sinfest, I'll bet m bottom dollar a lot of those illustrations are there for the reasons I have explained.

[Russly]

Yes, I guess fans just don't always draw that conclusion right away. Different strokes for different folks!

-Russly

[SinfestReader]

Z6IIAB, So the problem is that people aren't conforming to the binary system? That people want to exist beyond the constraints society has placed on them because of their birth? That people want you to treat them as they want to be treated, rather than how you want to treat them?

That's your view of the strip? The problem is that some people won't conform to beliefs you agree with, and that makes you feel as though they are making you conform to theirs? You don't recognize this as hypocritical?

To you it seems oppressive to demand freedom from the constraints of other peoples beliefs. You feel that people do harm, because they are demanding the right to express themselves?

You're saying Tatsuya is a TERF?

[Russly]

It might even be he is a blatant terf but pretty sure it's just him calling out the less savory individuals in that realm? More to the point, people can be trans for the right reasons but all too often are for the wrong reasons and it's a bleep to know which are which...? At the least, difference's celebrated over here, yet even that's relative.

The red guy's Texas Ranger, what about the blue guy?

-Russly

[Z6IIAB]

Z6IIAB, So the problem is that people aren't conforming to the binary system? That people want to exist beyond the constraints society has placed on them because of their birth? That people want you to treat them as they want to be treated, rather than how you want to treat them?

That's your view of the strip? The problem is that some people won't conform to beliefs you agree with, and that makes you feel as though they are making you conform to theirs? You don't recognize this as hypocritical?

To you it seems oppressive to demand freedom from the constraints of other peoples beliefs. You feel that people do harm, because they are demanding the right to express themselves?

You're saying Tatsuya is a TERF?

I'm a radical feminist. Tat's an ally. And honestly, radical feminists are the only ones actually wanting a future where there's no sexist roles and stereotypes imposed on people or else. Unlike your bs make-belief fantasy where you think a woman is a feeling or wearing make-up and a dress. If you didn't know that by now... you're either extremely innocent or a f*cking troll. And if you're a troll, GTFO.

[Russly]

Well there's an elephant in the room in that we're being asked to simultaneously shirk the traditional male dominated world and -also- to shirk the new age gender nonconforming world. So which is it? Be a man and go back to the fifties attitude so you can get away with violence, or revoke your gender and be new age and all that so you can get away with violence?

Maybe, just maybe, we could give separating the variables of gender conformity and violence a shot for a second. What kind of labyrinth do we end up in then? Well first off, we live in an anger infested modern work a day world and that doesn't help. Second, we buy into it. I would not be surprised to find I am the only one radical enough here to not work, get all my food free, and do only charity for my days. If you have a job or even any money at all, you have no say here, do you? Try living in those woods in that twenty degree F weather. Then learn to enjoy it to the extent I do by now.

They say money's the root of all evil....

-Russly

[RikkiTikkiTavi]

... I would not be surprised to find I am the only one radical enough here to not work, get all my food free, and do only charity for my days. If you have a job or even any money at all, you have no say here, do you? Try living in those woods in that twenty degree F weather. Then learn to enjoy it to the extent I do by now.

They say money's the root of all evil....

-Russly

The kind of tough life you are living is not an easy one for sure. It seems to me this kind of life is possible only on the fringe - taking up the excess of a modern world.

But let's get that quote right... It is not money that is the root - it is 'love of money' and that is an important distinction. Since you are quoting the apostle Paul, might as well go for more:
Whoever loves money never has enough; whoever loves wealth is never satisfied with their income. ... "Do not wear yourself out to get rich; do not trust your own cleverness." Matthew 6:24 (not putting this here for religious connotations - but for the fact that the words have truth)

And that I think is an important distinction. Money is an abstraction - a representation of effort. This amount of money equals the effort required to make this loaf of bread. Bread does not just happen and for that matter wheat does not just happen. We long ago went beyond foraging for food in a natural environment.

But even those who forage and partake of the natural world have to make an effort. Manna does not just fall into our mouths. We are not plants that absorb the light from the sun.

So, money is just an abstraction of effort. What we feel about money is the potential evil. And that is what we are seeing portrayed in the world today. The love of money, the love of wealth, the love of power - that is why we are the product.

They push us to buy, they create a system where we cannot rise up (because the greater the contrast between what they have and what we have gives them greater joy), they want to control what we wear, what we think, - they want to control our whole identity - including how we feel about others.

Who are they? Just people. Just the people who happened to be at the right place at the right time. Just people that had wealth by birthright or happenstance. Just people full of love. The love of money.

[SinfestReader]

-Knocks over 'wine' glass-

So you're just a TERF too? OKay.

What you are innocent of is the programming that you're still subject too. You call yourself a feminist, yet you allow for another group to be marginalized. You say you are a champion of women, who have been historically oppressed, repressed, and suppressed, and you fight to support the same ills upon another group of people.

Is there a black woman in the thread? You know, a group that is supposed to be supported by feminism and is often not supported by a vast number of white women who otherwise call themselves feminist.

What is Feminism? I thought it was the demand for equal rights and respect for women. You like that Radical word, but let me tell you it's getting to be about as emphatic as 'Ultimate', 'Super', and 'Very'. Mostly because people keep attaching it to things, others, or themselves, when what they are doing isn't in any way radical.

I'm about every human being being allowed to express themselves in a any way that doesn't cause harm to other people. And everyone on the planet figuring out that just because they don't like something, doesn't mean it causes harm. That they don't have the right to dictate anything to others. You cannot choose how someone else lives, only how you respond to it.

If you respond to someone else's self expression, why should we put up with yours?

Also we've been having kind of an adult discussion here. How can we take you seriously if you can't have a discussion without attacking people?

[Z6IIAB]

Well there's an elephant in the room in that we're being asked to simultaneously shirk the traditional male dominated world and -also- to shirk the new age gender nonconforming world. So which is it? Be a man and go back to the fifties attitude so you can get away with violence, or revoke your gender and be new age and all that so you can get away with violence?

what? how about neither? stop thinking women are born inferior because they don't have a dick. stop thinking you can't be a man AND be soft, respectful and caring at the same time. how bout that? it's not hard.

[Russly]

It only exists relatively on the fringe, as we live in such a consumptive world that sustainability exists even on the mere outskirts of worldwide society, if that's any tell as to how close the Doomsday Clock is to zero right now. As for Paul and Matthew, that is a fair point which you raise! Then of course Jesus flipped the... money changers' tables? And of course, there is the classic point of a fancy shirt that costs thirty bucks at a ten dollar minimum wage is really a fancy shirt for three hours of your life.

"Manna does not fall into our mouths" really makes me want to stand under an apple tree with my mouth open.

In any event, correct, that the love of money and power and so on is how we can fall. And once we are 'fallen' (the idea of the 'fallen' and the 'falling' as defined by Scott Peck) our efforts are clear. We see "commitment to misunderstanding" as it were. And the 'they' are apparently a 'we' in a sense, sure, whoever of us is born into a world which encourages love of money. The 'fallen' raising other 'fallen'?

And to Reader and Z6IIAB, the rift that occurred during our recent discussion is getting clearer. Just that the divergence went in way different directions, almost not even on the same subject by this point? Z6IIAB, being 'neither', while possible, may be tougher than you think-- note Reader's adding "adult discussion".... Reader, give her the benefit of the doubt, since she has every right to be angry about all sorts of stuff...?

-Russly

[Z6IIAB]

Z6IIAB, being 'neither', while possible, may be tougher than you think--

You don't say... Listen, altought I can agree that's tougher for guys that don't wanna let go of their privileges as men in our patriarcal society, I'm sure that's not complicated to understand for men that already realize who they are is not defined by sexist roles and stereotypes. They are men because they were born with dicks, not because they are acting aggro, growing beards, chucking down beers, sexually harassing women or other so-called "brave and manly" behaviour. They know that our sex differences shouldn't be ignored, but they also should NOT be hierarquized. Having a penis or a vulva do not define us as human beings, but they do define whether we're male or female, men or women. But that's not that huge of a deal? It's part of human life, and it shouldn't be taken into account except in medical and developmental situations. We have our differences, but they don't mean as much as we're taught to think. Does that makes sense to you?

I mean, not all men are lazy, spineless douchebags that refuse to see they aren't superior for having a dick. Or that think they'll lose their masculinity if they do anything that doesn't revolve around their prejudiced ideas of manliness as an obligatory aquired behavior they have to perform at all times to continue to be men... right? At least, I want to believe there are plenty of men who aren't like that. Some dudes are really smart and honest, they must know. So, like I said, it's not hard. I think most men just aren't ready to undo all of their horrible, sexist learned behavior... because they're confortable. It's a confortable situation. I get it, you define yourself by someone else's standards since you were born, it's gonna be tough to undo that, especially when you're benefited by it. Which also explains why, instead of unlearning it, some men just keep that bullshit and flip a switch - start saying they're women or "non-binary". I mean, it's easier to change perspectives than to demolish the whole building, right? It doesn't solve the problem tho. It's like exchanging 6 for half a dozen. Different names, same bullshit. They still think being a man or a woman is like being different species, different life forms. It's not.

Is that simple enough to understand? That's just the summary, if you wanna read the whole "book" I suggest you do it yourself. Go to radical feminist sources, the best books and articles are there: here's one source, out of the goodness of my heart -> http://radfem.org/

Women are never gonna stop trying to get free from patriarchy. No matter what shape it takes. So either get on board or get out of our way. We will run over all of them bumps in our road, no matter how big. It's only a matter of time.

[Russly]

Well I do not expect to do your response justice, I can at least appreciate that you did add your two cents here. I'm not really sure whether I agree with most of what you said, and yet, I don't disagree with it. Just not sure where to place my grammatical philosophy of man versus male or woman versus female and other such semantical conjecture in tandem with their physical corollaries. (Meaning, stuff like "manly behavior" versus "masculine behavior", and then of course "act like a man" versus "act like an adult.") I think we may always be in the purgatory between the rabbit hole of word policing and the dangerous world of real life rioting. This forum represents the left in all its glory after all!

So, if I were to give a more direct response.... (Currently I'm at "does that make sense" and I'm following so far, yes.) As I start looking at your next paragraph I do wonder when a given man has to speak for men as a whole despite not really being like the rest (think Criminy). Or like how you shouldn't tell your kids Santa got the gift if you're rich, because the poor kid they talk about it to in school wonders why Santa didn't bring something as cool. "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is."

One problem that stands out is the relativity of that "flip a switch" point.... Sweet guys think they're being the jerks and jerks think they're being sweet, and all that. That Idiocracy principle plays in with this. So the sweet guys take the brunt of the work as it stands and they grow jaded. Even if they remain allies, their ability to truly communicate does diminish. The jerks, meanwhile, continue deluding themselves that they're sweet guys too (think Slick's slacking on Zen and subsequently Sleaze). Knowing who's who becomes contrived. There is the question of whether the person who strikes you is even themselves at the moment of the strike, or literally out of their minds in a sense.

This may sound a bit silly, but I also take note of the sentence structure. Based on your logic, if it's only a matter of time, then one day yes, women will stop trying to get free as they will then be free from patriarchy! Hehehe.

Power To The People,

-Russly

[lurker]

what? how about neither? stop thinking women are born inferior because they don't have a dick. stop thinking you can't be a man AND be soft, respectful and caring at the same time. how bout that? it's not hard.

Men who are soft might find it especially difficult to be assertive and fight society on that point