welcome to the fest

I for one am getting very very tired of the Trans/Woke story lines every single day.

I've been reading Sinfest since week 2 way back at the beginning!! So, "long time reader, first time poster" here (well, if you don't count the one from 25th May 2023 where I asked who the character in the last panel was meant to be - I still don't have a clue btw...)

Sinfest used to be fun and full of whimsy. I loved reading the New Year's story lines where Death has to track down and catch/kill the old year. I enjoyed Slick and Monique railing against the establishment, the Zombie that just wants a bedtime story, Seymour and the rest of the gang. Seeing the panel get transformed into the Kanji is always interesting.

Now it's just a drudge to read every day and get yet another trans-creep strip. Really, I think we've got the point...

Anyway, that's my little rant. I doubt much will change but at least its out of my system now :+)

*returns to the lurking gloom*

Agreed.

Feels like we're a few weeks away from a strip asking why there isn't a straight pride month. So much for a feminist webcomic.

Oh in regards to the "why isn't there a straight pride month", in my opinion for anyone willing to listen:

It's a good time to slowly introduce some parents/guardians to being lgbt+, because there are still some of them that just disown / punish harshly (uncommonly to the extent of death or worse)...

If we had straight pride month, it would sound nice, but I hope there won't be! As that could mean that homophobia "reached around", and became "heterophobia"

Like how "fatphobia" could go around and turn into "thinphobia" paired with iatrophobia.

Good reminder that the fearmongering over Trans people simply trying to exist (like today's comic featuring something that absolutely is not happening in the real world) leads to genuinely bad outcomes for women: https://www.castanet.net/news/Kelowna/4 ... track-meet

"She went to step up to compete for the grade four shot-put final, and right before she went to throw, a grandfather of a student said, 'Hey, this is supposed to be a girls' event, and why are you letting boys compete.' My daughter is cisgender, born female, uses she/her pronouns. She has a pixie haircut," said mom Heidi Star.

Star says the man then carried on to demand certification to prove that her daughter was born female.

"He stopped the entire event. He also pointed at another girl who also had short hair. He then piped in and said, 'Well, if she is not a boy, then she is obviously trans.'"

Star said the man's wife then started calling her "a genital mutilator, a groomer, and a pedophile."

Everyone should probably just mind their own business instead of terrorizing kids and obsessing over their genitals.

Personally I'm here for it. I've had enough of wokeness and its absolutely toxic effect on children.

The job of the artist is to use their medium to call attention to truths. Tat's medium is a somewhat over-the-top universe, so it makes sense that he would have over-the-top versions of very real problems.

If his depictions frighten or discomfort you, ask yourself: do I dislike the medium, or do I dislike the truth is contains?

"Wokeness" is toxic to children? Could you please define "wokeness" or do you just mean people who are not in the majority?

Could you please define "wokeness"

I would be happy to.

Woke means believing in two key principles:

1. Human beings do not have a nature. We are completely fungible, and only our choices and perceptions matter. A good example is transgenderism; how you feel about yourself is considered paramount. The fact that your DNA is male or female is considered unimportant or even 'harmful' to think about.

2. Western society can fundamentally be broken down into oppressors and oppressed classes, divided by intersectional and overlapping oppressor/oppressed dynamics that are present 'systemically'. Those who are oppressed have a moral obligation to overcome this oppression by any means necessary. A good example is Black Lives Matter; the most important thing about you is your skin color - with the correct skin color, you can demand almost anything from an 'oppressor', up to an including violating their safety or property, in the name of correcting injustices be they modern or historical.

This often leads to two ironic beliefs:

1. You can instantly judge a person's moral worth by their outward characteristics. If I'm white, or male, or heterosexual, my moral worth is diminished. This is ironic since the last major groups to make this argument were: slavers, and the Klan.

2. My personal expression is more important than anything about anyone else: their safety, their flourishing, or even their life.


The opposite of wokeness is based. It hold the opposite to be true:

1. Human beings have a nature, and that nature informs how we can and should act. For example, children are not informed about the world at birth, and are not able to fully comprehend the consequences of all actions or carry the weight of all knowledge. For this reason, we protect children from experiences and information that could seriously harm their development.

2. Western society is the freest, most equal society we have every invented. A cursory reading of history makes this evident. While Western civilization is still populated by imperfect people, a wholesale dismantling of it in favor of 'something else' is both hopelessly naive and profoundly stupid. Improve the best we have, which is Western civ.

This leads to follow-on beliefs that cause clashes with the 'woke':

1. You cannot judge a person by anything but their actions. Every person has a varied experience that does not fit neatly into the intersectional categories of critical theory. Also, because we all share a nature worthy of dignity, every person - even your worst enemy - is worthy of being listened to. Shouting down ideas or trying to silence your opposition disrespects their dignity. Listening to others, even in strong disagreement, is required.

2. My personal expression cannot trump the rights of others, especially the most vulneralble - children's education is a great example. Children cannot understand the mental illness of gender dysphoria, and exposing them to mental illness as though it is good is seriously harming a child.

Happy to answer follow-ups or add clarification.

grabachair wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 24, 2023 3:38 pm

Could you please define "wokeness"

The opposite of wokeness is based.

Remember when Gamergate decided to terrorize women for simply existing and talking about videogames? I'm so happy to see their influence on certain people (mostly men) in our society. Yup, it sure is great that reactionary harassment campaigns have led to scared people thinking that that a sentence like this makes sense.

Might be time to log off if you think it does.

So your response to a well reasoned exposition is to first make a sidelong ad hominem attack using a decade-old reference, then act condescending?

Uh, what?

I didn't read a well-reasoned exposition. I read the terrified ramblings of someone who thinks the boogeyman is real. Go outside, touch some grass, and join the real world and not the scary one of your imagination. I mean, if you want to live in terror, that's your choice. But I'm not going to waste time talking to someone who thinks that "The Opposite of wokeness is based" is some sort of logical sentence.

Trans people aren't hurting anyone and teaching kids about the totality of human experience and history is not bad. The real world is complicated, yes. But if you can stop pissing your pants in fear every time you see someone who doesn't look like you, you might discover that the world is more interesting for its complications.

But if you're too terrified to see that, it's no skin off my back.

You use words like terrified and boogeyman, but it's starting to feel like a lot of projection on your part.

Are you unwilling to engage in a real debate (a coward) or do you not know how (ignorant)?

Do you know how a discussion works? One person makes a point, and you refute it with facts and logic. Crying racist, calling me afraid, etc etc is called an ad hominen attack. It means 'against the man', and practically speaking means, "I can't refute your facts and logic, so I'll try to say that true things aren't true because you said them and I think you're bad." Ad hominen attack is not refutation, and it's downright stupid.

(If you're struggling to get the concept, you can educate yourself here: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem)

Let's try this again... if you don't think my arguments hold up, attack the arguments like a rational person. If Based is not the opposite of Woke, give definitions, evidence, and reasoning. Speak to the problem. If you find yourself having a desire to attack my character, that is your old stupid self talking; stick to the point like an adult. You can do this.

PS - I encourage you to examine your own motivations. Ad hominem attacks usually come from a place of personal fear or insecurity. It's ok to not know a thing, but don't slander others out of a sense of misplaced trauma.

This time it was only a week I was gone and yes I am still to do other topics as the forum's technical abilities permit sooner rather than later. It was that one shirt where instead of sizism being included with all the other "no isms" it just read "no fat shame" or something and I was like oof. If I'm not mistaken, Chair is concerned the jokes of the latest arcs really have been pigeonholed and relegated to cheap shots again, yet principles are still kind of on point. Tat will probably move on to a few normal strips for whatever next arc, certainly worthwhile to maintain balance. I do take seriously where the ability to change DNA has started being the next aim after AI took off. Also, listen to everybody except the guy who will hypnotize you of course. Unless you're into that sort of stuff!

Yes the opposite of wokeness is based. The sole way to make any wokeness itself based is doing something like explaining to your five year old about how -others- discussing dysphoria in class are potentially in a hyperbolic or excitable place, and that if they experience any wondering of their own, they are allowed to think about its effect on their peers so far to get a frame of reference. Now woke basedness on the other hand....

-Russly

Just a clarification: I am not concerned that Tat is taking good shots at corrupt woke institutions or people. I’m here for it and encourage it.

grabachair wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 24, 2023 3:38 pm

Woke means believing in two key principles:

1. Human beings do not have a nature. We are completely fungible, and only our choices and perceptions matter. A good example is transgenderism; how you feel about yourself is considered paramount. The fact that your DNA is male or female is considered unimportant or even 'harmful' to think about.

Ehhh, no. In my experience, people and views that are described as "woke" (almost never a self-applied label...) don't really hold with that. It would be more accurate to say that the belief is that the "nature" of human beings is not as limited in scope or dimension as traditionally has been accepted in western civilization (there being plenty of other civilizations and cultures that have in fact traditionally recognized more than just the two gender model of human identity). How you feel about yourself is important and expressing that is a pretty fundamental human right (ie Freedom of Expression as a logical parallel to Freedom of Speech). Further, I would posit that most "woke" people actually recognize that the concept of "nature vs nurture" is fundamentally flawed, in that most elements of who we are and we become as we grow up are a combination of both elements and how they interact. Similarly, our minds and bodies are not separate but intertwined and interconnected in forming our sense of self and identity.

grabachair wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 24, 2023 3:38 pm

2. Western society can fundamentally be broken down into oppressors and oppressed classes, divided by intersectional and overlapping oppressor/oppressed dynamics that are present 'systemically'. Those who are oppressed have a moral obligation to overcome this oppression by any means necessary. A good example is Black Lives Matter; the most important thing about you is your skin color - with the correct skin color, you can demand almost anything from an 'oppressor', up to an including violating their safety or property, in the name of correcting injustices be they modern or historical.

The pervasive fundamental misconception (willful or otherwise) about BLM... the point of the movement and slogan is the juxtaposition against the historical and ongoing bias AGAINST black lives in the American legal/justice system, where they are often treated as if they do NOT matter. The statistics on police violence, incarceration rates, longer sentencing, etc can all demonstrate this if you look at them. If it helps consider the phrase "Black Lives Matter Too" instead, the point here is that they should not be treated as LESSER or underserving of the same consideration given to others.

grabachair wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 24, 2023 3:38 pm

This often leads to two ironic beliefs:

1. You can instantly judge a person's moral worth by their outward characteristics. If I'm white, or male, or heterosexual, my moral worth is diminished. This is ironic since the last major groups to make this argument were: slavers, and the Klan.

2. My personal expression is more important than anything about anyone else: their safety, their flourishing, or even their life.

Not even a thing, you're making this up based on what appears to be fear (hence the previous comments from other posters). There is no pattern or data that supports either of these

grabachair wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 24, 2023 3:38 pm

The opposite of wokeness is based. It hold the opposite to be true:

1. Human beings have a nature, and that nature informs how we can and should act. For example, children are not informed about the world at birth, and are not able to fully comprehend the consequences of all actions or carry the weight of all knowledge. For this reason, we protect children from experiences and information that could seriously harm their development.

This isn't even really the opposite of the view you posited "woke" as holding...

grabachair wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 24, 2023 3:38 pm

2. Western society is the freest, most equal society we have every invented. A cursory reading of history makes this evident. While Western civilization is still populated by imperfect people, a wholesale dismantling of it in favor of 'something else' is both hopelessly naive and profoundly stupid. Improve the best we have, which is Western civ.

Ummm, "improving" what we have is the whole point of movements like BLM or any "progressive" organization or movement, hence "progress". Although, if you want to get into, "Radical Feminism" (which is still ostensibly the political viewpoint of Sinfest, yes?) IS in fact pretty much about dismantling the entire system we have (patriarchy) in favor of "something else" (which in my experience, RF struggles to define clearly)

grabachair wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 24, 2023 3:38 pm

This leads to follow-on beliefs that cause clashes with the 'woke':

1. You cannot judge a person by anything but their actions. Every person has a varied experience that does not fit neatly into the intersectional categories of critical theory. Also, because we all share a nature worthy of dignity, every person - even your worst enemy - is worthy of being listened to. Shouting down ideas or trying to silence your opposition disrespects their dignity. Listening to others, even in strong disagreement, is required.

You don't seem to know what "critical theory" means, same as most of the people railing against CRT. Try actually looking it up from the people who USE it, not the ones who think it's something spooky and evil...
I see far more "woke" people trying to listen than "based", mostly because the "based" have already made up their minds and defined what "woke" people believe and how it is a threat

grabachair wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 24, 2023 3:38 pm

2. My personal expression cannot trump the rights of others, especially the most vulneralble - children's education is a great example. Children cannot understand the mental illness of gender dysphoria, and exposing them to mental illness as though it is good is seriously harming a child.

Children often see things in simple terms, even black and white. The mark of a maturing mind is one that learns to understand and accept nuance and that there are not only shades of grey but entire spectrums of color (a rainbow if you will) of viewpoints. Exposing children to the spectrum of human experience and supporting their exploration of the world is actually a great way to help them grow up without fear of people and ideas that are not like themselves