Long-time fan of the comics here. Hi all.
So, I'm a human being, and I enjoy sex. And I enjoy pornography. Hear me out. That means written stories and, yes, erotic movies and porn movies.
So the Johnbies 'arc' got me thinking.
Is all porn evil? Or are things more complicated? Is the message that I should oppose any form of pornography?
I'm not asexual and reading and watching these things does arouse me and I'm definitely pro-sex and pro-masturbation.
So, das anti-porn mean being against all forms? Or is it more nuanced? There is feminist porn where the movies are ethically made. There's written stories. As I'm bisexual: How does watching gay (amateur) porn play into all of it?
Am I still a Johnbie, no matter how much I care about the content of pornography and how it was created? Naturally I don't want to be a Johnbie....
Porn and Johnbies
-An ideal discussion to me is one where participants are open to other opinions. Math is usually not a discussion. But we aren't talking about math, are we?-
-Don't confuse radicalism with fundamentalism.-
-Don't confuse radicalism with fundamentalism.-
Dear morothar,
Yes, all porn is bad. Let me put it like this: Even if you found a porn-movie, where all people involved did this because they love to do it and everybody got payed well and everything is fairytale-amazing. Then the movie still shows the people in it only as sexual objects. That is porn, there is no depth to the characters. This means in the conotation of our male-dominated society that we mostly define the woman as a sexual object, strengthening the idea that women are that, sexual objects. Even this fairytale porn would therefore harm all women in making the idea that they are sexual object stronger in your head.
Sorry
Yes, all porn is bad. Let me put it like this: Even if you found a porn-movie, where all people involved did this because they love to do it and everybody got payed well and everything is fairytale-amazing. Then the movie still shows the people in it only as sexual objects. That is porn, there is no depth to the characters. This means in the conotation of our male-dominated society that we mostly define the woman as a sexual object, strengthening the idea that women are that, sexual objects. Even this fairytale porn would therefore harm all women in making the idea that they are sexual object stronger in your head.
Sorry
Yello? I'd like a big cup o' change please? Anybody?
@Oldone:
Since I cannot find enough kind words to reply to you and won't resort to a similar tone, I just won't reply to your answer at all.
@jdth:
First: Thank you for your answer and kind tone.
So far I was thinking that these porn movies aren't to hard to find. There are feminist porn awards, and I *think* they have high standards to who and how the movies are made.
Anyway, that is besides your point. So, getting rid of movies, does erotic literature have the same problems? They do describe sexual interactions in detail, so yes? (As you might have guessed, I'm not into porn that treats women badly, so let's not go to that sub-category of sex stories).
So, my only obvious option is to stop reading or watching porn and rely on good old imagination for my, uhm, private times.... Correct?
Since I cannot find enough kind words to reply to you and won't resort to a similar tone, I just won't reply to your answer at all.
@jdth:
First: Thank you for your answer and kind tone.
So far I was thinking that these porn movies aren't to hard to find. There are feminist porn awards, and I *think* they have high standards to who and how the movies are made.
Anyway, that is besides your point. So, getting rid of movies, does erotic literature have the same problems? They do describe sexual interactions in detail, so yes? (As you might have guessed, I'm not into porn that treats women badly, so let's not go to that sub-category of sex stories).
So, my only obvious option is to stop reading or watching porn and rely on good old imagination for my, uhm, private times.... Correct?
-An ideal discussion to me is one where participants are open to other opinions. Math is usually not a discussion. But we aren't talking about math, are we?-
-Don't confuse radicalism with fundamentalism.-
-Don't confuse radicalism with fundamentalism.-
I am afraid so, when it comes to porn. Reading erotica is a different thing. I have no objection to that, even if some of what's out there can be pretty... well, to each their own.So, my only obvious option is to stop reading or watching porn and rely on good old imagination for my, uhm, private times.... Correct?
Even if the facts of what porn does to its victims, and that you are contributing to the abuse and sale of women and often times children as objects isn't enough to deter you, consider:
Porn addiction is a real thing - a real bad thing. If you think about it, it actually makes perfect sense. It's Pavlovian. If you end up consistently reaching your peak with porn, consider the endorphins and the rush. It has been shown in studies that excess porn-watching can alter a number of your mental processes and re-wire your brain.
It can make it quite a bit more difficult to actually become and stay aroused with a partner. It can shape your attitudes towards rape and violence, and skew your intimacy expectations.
I'm sorry, but like there's no "healthy" suntan, there is no "clean" porn.
"Because as we all know... there is nothing stronger than a broken woman who has rebuilt herself!" -Hannah Gadsby
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RikkiTikkiTavi
- Posts:139
- Joined:Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:12 am
Thanks October. That framed things perfectly.
Morathar's question made me think about this. Is there a difference between porn and erotica. I guess more specifically, images as a photo or video and what is written.
The key difference is that an actual person is involved in images and only imagination is involved in the written format.
I do not think however that erotica should get off lightly. I was exposed to an 'adult novel' as a pre-teen and that horrible work of poorly written smut left a mark on my brain. It damaged the way I thought about things at a time I should have been focused on other stuff.
But I totally get how photos, videos, and prostitution differ. The life of another human is involved in making them and we must protect those people.
I don't want to live in a world where someone is policing my thoughts, so I must allow someone else their thoughts.
I do want to live in a world where porn and prostitution do not exist.
Morathar's question made me think about this. Is there a difference between porn and erotica. I guess more specifically, images as a photo or video and what is written.
The key difference is that an actual person is involved in images and only imagination is involved in the written format.
I do not think however that erotica should get off lightly. I was exposed to an 'adult novel' as a pre-teen and that horrible work of poorly written smut left a mark on my brain. It damaged the way I thought about things at a time I should have been focused on other stuff.
But I totally get how photos, videos, and prostitution differ. The life of another human is involved in making them and we must protect those people.
I don't want to live in a world where someone is policing my thoughts, so I must allow someone else their thoughts.
I do want to live in a world where porn and prostitution do not exist.
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RikkiTikkiTavi
- Posts:139
- Joined:Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:12 am
Okay, not to beat a dead horse but this really has me thinking and I would like to know what other opinions are.
What about animated porn? There is absolutely no 'live' subject, but there certainly versions out there right now that depict every kind of pornography.
And what about digital imagery. They can make a digital image look almost real (absolutely real no doubt soon) and the animation created could depict anything.
As I said before, no persons would be harmed or exploited in making either of these formats, but for the viewer the effect would be about the same.
And then that brings up the subject of artificial prostitutes. The real dolls are already out there and the technology will only advance in the future.
So, my question is about virtual porn and virtual prostitution. While there is no real victim to protect is the harm still a potential? Is the viewer in need of protection?
As I said, I am just wanting to hear from other perspectives to help me fully comprehend my own views. Right now my mind is just bouncing around on this topic.
Thanks in advance.
What about animated porn? There is absolutely no 'live' subject, but there certainly versions out there right now that depict every kind of pornography.
And what about digital imagery. They can make a digital image look almost real (absolutely real no doubt soon) and the animation created could depict anything.
As I said before, no persons would be harmed or exploited in making either of these formats, but for the viewer the effect would be about the same.
And then that brings up the subject of artificial prostitutes. The real dolls are already out there and the technology will only advance in the future.
So, my question is about virtual porn and virtual prostitution. While there is no real victim to protect is the harm still a potential? Is the viewer in need of protection?
As I said, I am just wanting to hear from other perspectives to help me fully comprehend my own views. Right now my mind is just bouncing around on this topic.
Thanks in advance.
@RikkiTikkiTavi
I think I'll use @october's reasoning here. Animated porn is kinda the same as "feminist porn" as @morothar described. No-one is harmed directly in the making, but it still can re-wire your brain (if you want to put it this way. I mean, everything re-wires your brain all the time, if you are precise, but I think we all know what is meant here, right?). So even if it is not directly harmful to others, it can still be harmful to you and thereby to others.
My thoughts at least.
I think I'll use @october's reasoning here. Animated porn is kinda the same as "feminist porn" as @morothar described. No-one is harmed directly in the making, but it still can re-wire your brain (if you want to put it this way. I mean, everything re-wires your brain all the time, if you are precise, but I think we all know what is meant here, right?). So even if it is not directly harmful to others, it can still be harmful to you and thereby to others.
My thoughts at least.
Yello? I'd like a big cup o' change please? Anybody?
@RikkiTikkiTavi
I think it's more in line with propaganda and should be countered as such, which means not banning it no matter how we feel about it, instead simply giving people better information to counter it. Most people's first exposure to sex is via porn, which aside from being the travesty we all know and despise, is a horrid place to learn such information and can reasonably serve as a bulwark against better information. I would instead propose people learn more accurate and better information from earlier on so that when they look at the portrayals in porn they would find it less appealing or, hopefully, not appealing at all.
There's more issues with attempting to ban/outlaw victimless porn; it overlaps with art. Where does an artistic nude stop and sexist pinup start? Is that story a vehicle for sex or is the sex a vehicle for the story? It's along the same lines as; is Romeo and Juliet a story we should emulate for the deep passion the leads have for each other or a cautionary tale that blind adoration can only lead to disaster? These are all difficult and nearly impossible questions to answer uniformly and in a systematic manor, so I'd rather side with art than a “just to be safe†argument.
As for artificial prostitution, I'm a little more hesitant towards; there's a lot of good and bad to be done there. In the plus categories it enables people to have victimless sexual outlet aside from “rubbing one out†as they say, it could be used for a learning tool for a lot of areas, and it would enable a lot of people of both genders to learn their bodies and what they enjoy in a safe environment. On the down side it would enable predators to express themselves to perhaps build up the courage to act, it would also likely end up building up an expectation of partners that they literally can't uphold like many dildos and vibrators have done, and it would likely encourage more people to separate from society than already do which given the people that do that already I'm not sure is the worst thing in the world. On the whole I think it'd be a good thing; it fills a “need†and makes it so there is no one getting hurt. It also would likely demolish the underground prostitution rings; why go through the effort and risk of getting living person who is “close enough†to what you want when you can just order exactly what you want through the mail. Humans, if nothing else, will almost always go for the lazy option whenever possible.
I wholly agree things should be done about live action porn and even more so prostitution, but I don't think barring digital, written, and artificial media is going to help in reducing the number of overall victims of the patriarchy. I guess the way I see it is like vaping; some people get hooked on it, others look to use it ween themselves off worse, and it's something a lot of people want them to quit, but it's still nowhere near as bad as the real thing.
I think it's more in line with propaganda and should be countered as such, which means not banning it no matter how we feel about it, instead simply giving people better information to counter it. Most people's first exposure to sex is via porn, which aside from being the travesty we all know and despise, is a horrid place to learn such information and can reasonably serve as a bulwark against better information. I would instead propose people learn more accurate and better information from earlier on so that when they look at the portrayals in porn they would find it less appealing or, hopefully, not appealing at all.
There's more issues with attempting to ban/outlaw victimless porn; it overlaps with art. Where does an artistic nude stop and sexist pinup start? Is that story a vehicle for sex or is the sex a vehicle for the story? It's along the same lines as; is Romeo and Juliet a story we should emulate for the deep passion the leads have for each other or a cautionary tale that blind adoration can only lead to disaster? These are all difficult and nearly impossible questions to answer uniformly and in a systematic manor, so I'd rather side with art than a “just to be safe†argument.
As for artificial prostitution, I'm a little more hesitant towards; there's a lot of good and bad to be done there. In the plus categories it enables people to have victimless sexual outlet aside from “rubbing one out†as they say, it could be used for a learning tool for a lot of areas, and it would enable a lot of people of both genders to learn their bodies and what they enjoy in a safe environment. On the down side it would enable predators to express themselves to perhaps build up the courage to act, it would also likely end up building up an expectation of partners that they literally can't uphold like many dildos and vibrators have done, and it would likely encourage more people to separate from society than already do which given the people that do that already I'm not sure is the worst thing in the world. On the whole I think it'd be a good thing; it fills a “need†and makes it so there is no one getting hurt. It also would likely demolish the underground prostitution rings; why go through the effort and risk of getting living person who is “close enough†to what you want when you can just order exactly what you want through the mail. Humans, if nothing else, will almost always go for the lazy option whenever possible.
I wholly agree things should be done about live action porn and even more so prostitution, but I don't think barring digital, written, and artificial media is going to help in reducing the number of overall victims of the patriarchy. I guess the way I see it is like vaping; some people get hooked on it, others look to use it ween themselves off worse, and it's something a lot of people want them to quit, but it's still nowhere near as bad as the real thing.
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pingupingu
- Posts:32
- Joined:Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:52 pm
Speaking as a former Johnbi: all porn is corrupting. Without even addressing the question of exploitation which goes beyond my pay grade, all porn is corrupting.
No matter how innocent you think it is, no matter how hard or soft, consensual or non-consensual, vanilla or fetish, all porn seeps into you, and it drags you in deeper, corrupting you. It encourages you to lie to yourself, to justify your perversions. It twists your thinking and your perceptions and projects those lies onto others.
There's no such thing as safe porn or healthy porn.
Unfortunately, you cannot un-see what you have seen. You cannot return to innocence.
I'll go one further: Anything that presents a fantasy - a lie - for the sole purpose of sexual-gratification is inherently dangerous.
No matter how innocent you think it is, no matter how hard or soft, consensual or non-consensual, vanilla or fetish, all porn seeps into you, and it drags you in deeper, corrupting you. It encourages you to lie to yourself, to justify your perversions. It twists your thinking and your perceptions and projects those lies onto others.
There's no such thing as safe porn or healthy porn.
Unfortunately, you cannot un-see what you have seen. You cannot return to innocence.
I'll go one further: Anything that presents a fantasy - a lie - for the sole purpose of sexual-gratification is inherently dangerous.
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partoftheproblem
- Posts:2
- Joined:Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:50 pm
[quote="pingupingu"]Speaking as a former Johnbi: all porn is corrupting. Without even addressing the question of exploitation which goes beyond my pay grade, all porn is corrupting.
I'm not sure if that's a solid argument. It kind of feels like the argument that consistently tries to link violent video games to real world violence.
Not everyone will be influenced in that the same way. And I say that as someone that doesn't watch it anymore.
In my mind, porn and sex aren't inherently bad.. rather how it's done and the industry is the problem. You'd need more women with studios leading the narrative but we often assume women aren't capable of the same sort of manipulation and corrupting influence that male lead studios have..
My mind set is, it's like someone making the decision to work in a coal mine. It's dangerous work. But who am I to stop them or make them feel less than for doing it. If a woman that's of age makes the choice to enter the industry it really isn't my place as a man or anything else to tell her how to live. Rather than attack her or other doing what they can to get by, what are the conditions that lead them to feel it's the best option for themselves? Because not everyone has a dark back story. Sometimes it's simply the money.
Like there's an story going around saying 177,000 people are in the sugar baby industry in Australia to pay for school. So if we find a way to make school more affordable or free wouldn't that fix the issue? Rather than screaming at the women who choose to enter it or the men then facilitate it?
The odd thing is a lot of people know the industry doesn't pay well now but still do it. And they often (from an inside source) use it to boost their profile for sex work outside of the industry. No lie.. If you'll get on camera for a couple hundred bucks why would you say no to the billionaire that will discreetly fly you anywhere in the world for 10,000 dollars.
I don't think sex is bad. It's just how it's approached that matters. And what's okay and what isn't okay is different for everyone. If a woman decides she wants to be an openly sexual being then no problem. Not my business. If she decides she doesn't then no problem, not my business.
I'm not sure if that's a solid argument. It kind of feels like the argument that consistently tries to link violent video games to real world violence.
Not everyone will be influenced in that the same way. And I say that as someone that doesn't watch it anymore.
In my mind, porn and sex aren't inherently bad.. rather how it's done and the industry is the problem. You'd need more women with studios leading the narrative but we often assume women aren't capable of the same sort of manipulation and corrupting influence that male lead studios have..
My mind set is, it's like someone making the decision to work in a coal mine. It's dangerous work. But who am I to stop them or make them feel less than for doing it. If a woman that's of age makes the choice to enter the industry it really isn't my place as a man or anything else to tell her how to live. Rather than attack her or other doing what they can to get by, what are the conditions that lead them to feel it's the best option for themselves? Because not everyone has a dark back story. Sometimes it's simply the money.
Like there's an story going around saying 177,000 people are in the sugar baby industry in Australia to pay for school. So if we find a way to make school more affordable or free wouldn't that fix the issue? Rather than screaming at the women who choose to enter it or the men then facilitate it?
The odd thing is a lot of people know the industry doesn't pay well now but still do it. And they often (from an inside source) use it to boost their profile for sex work outside of the industry. No lie.. If you'll get on camera for a couple hundred bucks why would you say no to the billionaire that will discreetly fly you anywhere in the world for 10,000 dollars.
I don't think sex is bad. It's just how it's approached that matters. And what's okay and what isn't okay is different for everyone. If a woman decides she wants to be an openly sexual being then no problem. Not my business. If she decides she doesn't then no problem, not my business.
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pingupingu
- Posts:32
- Joined:Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:52 pm
I see where you're coming from, but I'll let you go forward:partoftheproblem wrote:I'm not sure if that's a solid argument. It kind of feels like the argument that consistently tries to link violent video games to real world violence.
The weakness here is defining "the same way". I'm less concerned in whether people are affected identically and focusing rather on that everyone who views porn is affected by it. You cannot unsee the things you see. You cannot rewind your mind. You engage in fantasy for sexual pleasure and absorb that.Not everyone will be influenced in that the same way. And I say that as someone that doesn't watch it anymore.
This is where I'll go back to your original concern. That it's like trying to link violent video games to real world violence. I think anyone who has played violent video games has, in some way, been affected by that. Does that mean everyone is going to engage in violence subsequently? No. But it is equally insidious in how it affects the mind, and the fact that you cannot rewind your brain.
There are no real quality metrics to assess the problem, but we can to an extent rely on the anecdotal evidence of our own experience and that of those we have met - friends, acquaintances, lovers.
Who said sex is bad? Porn is fantasy for the sole purpose of sexual gratification. There is no realistic porn that shows realistic lives and realistic relationships. Porn is commercialisation and distribution of the act of sex, amputated from healthy relationships and healthy attitudes. It takes the act of sex and glorifies it.In my mind, porn and sex aren't inherently bad..
Pourquoi pas le deux? People smoke of their own choice, but it still rots their lungs and pollutes the environment. We can easily see, however, the impact that anti-smoking campaigns have had on participation. There is no healthy porn, it's only a measure of degrees.Like there's an story going around saying 177,000 people are in the sugar baby industry in Australia to pay for school. So if we find a way to make school more affordable or free wouldn't that fix the issue? Rather than screaming at the women who choose to enter it or the men then facilitate it?
I don't think that's even part of this discussion. Sex is good. It's fun, it strengthens bonds, releases stress, and expresses love. Let's not confuse sex and porn.I don't think sex is bad.
Re: Porn and Johnbies
Porn use is a pretty simple moral issue for me: Let's say I'm considering whether to watch it. How do I know the woman in it isn't poor and thus forced into it? Or maybe she's been drugged? Or is threatened with violence? Or is being emotionally abused? Men do all these things outside of porn and all of these things make what I'm watching not sex, but a woman being used as an object for masturbation. This shouldn't turn me or anyone on, of course.
(In this frame, gay porn is morally less troublesome, but the problems introduced by capitalism are still not trivial!)
Either you think capitalism and gender oppresses poor people and women and the thought experiment makes porn unacceptable to you, or you disagree and gender, capitalism, and porn is fine. Go back to the start and do the same for prostitution, same result. I think many people would say that you don't even need patriarchy to see porn/prostitution as a problem, since under capitalism you're alienated from any person who's serving you...
This is not to say that watching porn makes you bad and pro-whitesupremacistcapitalistpatriarchy. It's (pseudo)addictive and almost all men and many, many women and intersex people use it compulsively and/or struggle with it. What I'm concerned with is people *defending* the sex industry. It's clear to me that there's incentive for doing it and against asking the questions I ask above (I didn't make them up, I read a radfem asking them.) To me Sinfest is just one the first of many, many men to go against the incentive for explicitly radical feminist reasons, as opposed to the usual patriarchal nostalgia for chattel slavery of traditional marriage, before marital rape was, very recently(!!!), outlawed in the Anglosphere.
(In this frame, gay porn is morally less troublesome, but the problems introduced by capitalism are still not trivial!)
Either you think capitalism and gender oppresses poor people and women and the thought experiment makes porn unacceptable to you, or you disagree and gender, capitalism, and porn is fine. Go back to the start and do the same for prostitution, same result. I think many people would say that you don't even need patriarchy to see porn/prostitution as a problem, since under capitalism you're alienated from any person who's serving you...
This is not to say that watching porn makes you bad and pro-whitesupremacistcapitalistpatriarchy. It's (pseudo)addictive and almost all men and many, many women and intersex people use it compulsively and/or struggle with it. What I'm concerned with is people *defending* the sex industry. It's clear to me that there's incentive for doing it and against asking the questions I ask above (I didn't make them up, I read a radfem asking them.) To me Sinfest is just one the first of many, many men to go against the incentive for explicitly radical feminist reasons, as opposed to the usual patriarchal nostalgia for chattel slavery of traditional marriage, before marital rape was, very recently(!!!), outlawed in the Anglosphere.