welcome to the fest

Hello!

I would love to hear how other people became involved in radical feminism. I was one of many who was once zealously a liberal feminist for most of my adult life. Then, in 2012, something terrible happened, I went down the rabbit hole, and had a huge perspective shift. I also randomly went back to reading Sinfest, and almost became emotional when I was binge-ing the comic, and came across the early Sisterhood strips. I really felt like I was going through what Nique was.

http://www.sinfest.net/view.php?date=2011-10-09

How about you?

I think what brought me to radical feminism was one friend of mine making a simple question on a facebook group that was meant for intersectional feminists (which I used to think it's what I was, cause it sounded... so "wholesome" hehe). She asked: "what makes a woman a woman?". To me the answer was always straight up "being a female human being" because tbh, my likes, interests, personality and thoughts aren't "ladylike" in any sense of the term. I don't even find manly men attractive at all, and I was always conforted by the thought that I didn't have to be feminine to be a woman. I could be loud and ambitious and funny and even obnoxious, that wouldn't make me less of a woman. Women CAN be like that. We are a diverse and plural group of humans that have our sex as a common denominator! That's it. I always kind of took pride in being a female human being. But seeing how my answer to that question was suddenly "bigoted" really shooked me. Like... it was just a fact, what's wrong with that? For a moment I thought everyone was into the radical feminist approach to our fight for women's liberation but soon I learned that was being seen as hate... and it boogles me a lot. I kind of kept it to myself, but the more I read about it, the more it made sense. The more it was easier to notice what we should be doing and why! The more I felt good about myself, about other women! The more I got enraged we should be forced to act or think a certain way otherwise we would be called "tomboys" or "dykes". It became outrageous. That was around 2014, when Sinfest also started tackling the subject through a similar view... which made me kept reading it! I really loved that comic you cited, cause it's all so clear in there! Often times I post the comics on my facebook and I try to make people read Sinfest too xP I really wish that had a share button on fb, I think I even sent Tat an email asking if it was possible xD but in any case, I still post the comics now and then when I feel like the message is strong and clear.

...because tbh, my likes, interests, personality and thoughts aren't "ladylike" in any sense of the term.

I feel you there! I counted myself fortunate that my father was fine to have a tomboy daughter (maybe because my older sister was a super girly-girl). I was allowed to be un-feminine until I hit my pre-teen years... and then it was a heartbreaking indoctrination into femininity by my mother, sister, and culture as a whole.

It always reminded me of the Twilight Zone episode, "Number 12 Looks Just Like You".

omg... yikes! That episode... I never watched it, but I read the article and... yeesh. I get what you mean. I also got lucky! My dad actually used to punish excessive femininity - which DID make me feel sort of "liberated" in my early twenties when I started using more make up and all that frilly stuff - but my mom NEVER pushed me to "femininity". She didn't use make up herself. I guess I kind of got a taste on how both things can "feel" freeing... but being able to accept myself as a "tomboy" woman sure helps. I mean, I have little to no dysphoria about my own body, so, that's a good thing!

My parents were hippies and I grew up in the 80s when gender wasn't such an overwhelming force on children. I idolized hippies until I realized it was all just freedom for men, and women were still doing the same work they always did.

I was a libfem until I noticed pretty much the same thing. It wasn't one particular moment, really, but if it was, it was someone's statement that if men are applauding your feminism, probably what you're saying isn't actually in women's interest. Total clarity, there.

Newfish wrote:I idolized hippies until I realized it was all just freedom for men, and women were still doing the same work they always did.

oh how, now i'm pissed off at hippies... and I kind of get why people say the hippie "ideal" of "free love" was some bs. Some even say that it still exist, it just upgraded to "polyamorous" tier lol

oh and I agree, if any kind of feminism is applauded by a huge crownd of men, especially when they happen to still be sort of sexist and misogynistic, it's definitely a sham.

welcome to the fest, newfish \o!

I think my point of realization was when I realized that people who called themselves feminists did not stick up for all women, just certain women who agreed with them politically.

That has been somewhat recently, as in last 25 years, beginning early on noticing that Clinton's treatment of women, for example, was "no big deal", but over time, it's still "no big deal" even during this "#metoo" time, but if someone of the other party even hints at some sort of abuse of women, it's a major horror and must be done away with. Meanwhile, if the woman abused happens to be a member of Sarah Palin's family, or if the woman happened to be conservative/Conservative, or, as currently, someone who is pro-Trump, these women and/or their families "deserve" the abuse.

Okay for some, but not for others, is not going to fix the problem.

My point of view is definitely radical: NO WOMAN DESERVES THE ABUSE. NO CHILD DESERVES THE ABUSE.

And the '60's ideal of free love, I never could quite figure it out. It was never free. Women were designed genetically to bear children, and there's nothing free about living out the consequences of receiving the male seed. The whole thing really was designed to give men living toys without the responsibility of caring for those "toys" and the results of their playing with them. Ultimately, it encourages males not to mature mentally/emotionally/socially and it places undue pressure on females to protect themselves from such abusive behavior while at the same time chastising them if they're not into it. Too many mixed messages.

I agree with you, Blue. I think we shouldn't excuse the bad shit women can do, especially regarding politics, but none of us deserve the misogynistic abuse we often receive, even the most sexist of us.

someone's statement that if men are applauding your feminism, probably what you're saying isn't actually in women's interest. Total clarity, there.

Should we be worried about Tatsuya's message?

Junebug wrote:

someone's statement that if men are applauding your feminism, probably what you're saying isn't actually in women's interest. Total clarity, there.

Should we be worried about Tatsuya's message?

Worry isn't useful here. Caution is. Specifically, I am comfortable with the message of Sinfest in recent years, or I wouldn't be here. However, you can bet I've examined it more critically because the cartoonist is a man, as well as the early history of the comic.

I have only recently come to a new understanding of the nature of feminism, so most of this is still pretty fresh for me. I've read the comic for years, since its early times, and when it took off in this new direction I honestly thought Tat was trolling the entire fanbase for a while. Kept waiting for the other shoe to drop. Eventually, I accepted that this was the new status quo, and I was attached enough to the characters that I was still interested even if the humor I had come to expect wasn't the same or wasn't present anymore.

I grew to like philosophy a lot in college, and took a bunch of it. Eventually formulated some of my own- an alternate theory of violence, a theory of intelligent design to define predestination and free will as the same thing, a refusal of the ontological argument's accepted premises- but when it came to studying feminist philosophy the course text was pretty dated. I had already formed ideas of gender equality such as those presented, and couldn't understand the shadows beyond the surface.

So recently there was an incident in my life that caused me to really look, really think about these attitudes I held about gender equality. I took a notice of those shadows and tried shining a light on them.

That eureka moment came from a story relayed on a feminist blog that had been mentioned on a few other places I stumbled across in my searches- it had been referred to as "The Question" and presented as a kind of thought exercise for spotting male privilege. The story was about a professor on some kind of group learning trip, with an attractive younger female student accompanying him. Another member of that particular class came along as well, a younger male student who had a bad crush and an ugly streak of "nice guy" complex. Point of the story was, the prof didn't understand what this girl was going through, and when he finally told the kid off he felt sorry afterwards. When he got home, he told his wife what happened, and she asked him one question that erased any kind of sympathy the prof had for the guy- and you're supposed to see if you can figure out what that question was from the events of the story. Well, not only did I not spot the question, I had caught the event the question was about and had put a justification behind it. Not once had I considered the mindset of the girl- I had reflexively justified the guy's actions.

Suddenly the concept of male privilege is quite a bit more clear. The direction the comic has taken became a bit more clear. Those shadows under the surface took some shape. I finally had been put out of my comfort far enough to gain perspective on the social structures of my own male privilege that I never knew I had. I saw the patriarchy, and it was an ugly piece of dren.

There's a vicious Morton's Fork involved in trying to break someone out of that comfort- speak the message too loudly, and you put people on the defensive immediately, ready to fight for the system. Speak the message too soft, and nothing. Will ever. Get done. I was on both sides of that reception for almost all my life, until recently, and while there thought myself ahead of the curve... but I have a new perspective now, and I hope to keep refining it.

Hey, thanks for sharing your thoughts ackapus! It's really interesting to look at how dudes can realize male privilege.

Hey, was the question amde by the wife in your story something like "Was that girl into that dude?" ? I mean, it's what you implied, but I would like to know the actual example.

Newfish wrote:

Junebug wrote:

someone's statement that if men are applauding your feminism, probably what you're saying isn't actually in women's interest. Total clarity, there.

Should we be worried about Tatsuya's message?

Worry isn't useful here. Caution is. Specifically, I am comfortable with the message of Sinfest in recent years, or I wouldn't be here. However, you can bet I've examined it more critically because the cartoonist is a man, as well as the early history of the comic.

tbh I used to think Tat kicked the bucket and some radfem lady took his place cause... it was too in synch with I'm used to see in radfem circles... but at the same time that wouldn't be hard to spot if you're smart and willing to actually listen to radical feminists? Which I wanna believe it's true, Tat seem like a good person with a keen mind.

...It isn't only women who can see through the fog and have a change of perspective, that's for sure. The very first friend I had locally that came right out and defied my logic in my libfem days was a man. I was talking about a mutual acquaintance, a transwoman (who claimed to be a lesbian) who was kind of an idol of mine.

The guy had been a co-worker of that acquaintance, used his original name, and without being unkind or nasty to me, put it plain that he thought gender identity was utter bullshit. Now, this was almost fifteen years ago, but his frankness and reasoning could not be denied. I never forgot our conversation.

There are male allies. But I admit they seem far too few. But even the most obnoxiously zealous libfem (like I was) can one day have an understanding of things on an entirely new level!

October wrote:There are male allies. But I admit they seem far too few. But even the most obnoxiously zealous libfem (like I was) can one day have an understanding of things on an entirely new level!

That's the thought that helps me sleep at night. This world is a mess, but people are smarter than they give themselves credit for.