Now, before I write the next two paragraphs, my preface to this is as such. You will see it tackle the traditional forum conjectures, and then deviate wildly, for good reason. This is only meant as a basic speculation on the matter (especially as we watch the next segment of the current red vs blue arc).
So the basic argument goes that males are using trans identity as a way to continue their subjugation of females. Also, females who, for whatever reason, decide to identify as men aren't exactly heard in this debate. It only stands to reason that is because we are discussing situations involving manipulation, physical abuse, and so on, although the FTM narrative isn't exactly discounted either. Therefore, the opposition to the trans situation really just boils down to removing the actual violence and the rest might just be history.
Now here's what I've learned. For one, masculine and feminine are linguistic constructs-- before English came along, it was literally just to describe -words-. Then we had to go and ruin it by thinking it meant people too. Further, in this linguistic construct the male-female dichotomy exists within the spectrum of humanity. (We are all still part of humankind, something like that?) Plus, this is a spectrum which includes chromosomes from XXX to XY with feminine representation, so what does that tell you? Even the fat bald male was still an attractive entity in European countries only a few hundred years ago, symbolizing prosperity and longevity. America, however, now has obesity as an indicator of poverty because we straight created junk food, a worldwide first. That very same male now merely equates to a last grasp at acceptance. Hell, some bird species have the male be the caretaker for offspring, and some lizards are literally only female and lay clone eggs of themselves, effectively making each lizard its own genus in the species. (Then there's that single cell the size of a football....)
As a side note, it may be of mention that none of this is per se good or bad. I simply highlight the complexity of the true situation we find ourselves in. I can only really give a bird's eye view as I go based off what people here seem to take issue with most. Women are not only men, they can't not be men in the linguistic realm?
-Russly
Can Women Be Men?
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Re: Can Women Be Men?
You mentioned in another thread that there are issues with MtF Trans gendered people whom are not actually trying to act in accordance with their self expression or personal identity. These bad actors are merely trying to co-opt their perceived inroads to places that women had to be amongst other women without fear that someone was going to add a penis to the situation. Bathrooms, Girl's Night, whatever. There is no argument that there are at least some people whom are trying to use 'I'm Trans' to allow them to more efficiently stalk, rape, or otherwise abuse women. There are also 'bad actors' who are only preying upon people while presenting as trans for the sake of doing harm to the public acceptance of the same.Before this option became prevalent these same 'bad actors' would be using other means to accomplish their goals. Yet they were socially obstructed by such things as slipping into the ladies room knowing that anyone seeing a man follow you in would be taking note and your likely hood of attracting help is higher.
We should be attacking these people who are exploiting the identity of others to do harm. We should not be attacking people who are just trying to be the way they want to be. There are humans with vaginas that are going to need space in their life where there are no people with penises, regardless of gender, identity, or expression. The same is true with the genitals reversed. For some of these humans it is because of trauma. For some of these humans it is because of programming (Which I would argue is trauma but, that's a different conv...) which means that without drastic events they are beyond the point of acceptance, but still might not be horrible human beings. Segregation isn't the key either. There is no way you can split the world up so that no one ends up next to someone who isn't different in a way they don't appreciate.
Masculinity and Femininity being tied to genitals/gender is ridiculous. The primary value of it is marketing. People are easier to sell to once you have them in a box with walls made of social expectations.
It isn't about women being men, or women turning into men, or men to women in those regards. It's about a long chain of people telling those they wish to control how they should be so that they can better subjugate and exploit the lot of us. If we spent all the energy we spend on hate and distruction, instead on love and creation humans could do so much. Instead we let ourselves be goaded into constant conflict. Red vs Blue! Black vs White! Religious vs Not! Men vs Women! ... all of it so that we don't turn our toils to our own betterment. It may have started as vestigial primal urges, but it has been co-opted by those in power to manipulate and control us. We could instead grow and evolve. We are easier to control while the situation is maintained.
The lack of progress is what allows those in power to maintain their position. Let people express themselves however they want. Let them be whoever they want. So long as they are not abusing others.
Turn your cheek, and you can't see what offends you. Trans people aren't the problem, assholes who will use any tool they can to abuse others are the problem.
We should be attacking these people who are exploiting the identity of others to do harm. We should not be attacking people who are just trying to be the way they want to be. There are humans with vaginas that are going to need space in their life where there are no people with penises, regardless of gender, identity, or expression. The same is true with the genitals reversed. For some of these humans it is because of trauma. For some of these humans it is because of programming (Which I would argue is trauma but, that's a different conv...) which means that without drastic events they are beyond the point of acceptance, but still might not be horrible human beings. Segregation isn't the key either. There is no way you can split the world up so that no one ends up next to someone who isn't different in a way they don't appreciate.
Masculinity and Femininity being tied to genitals/gender is ridiculous. The primary value of it is marketing. People are easier to sell to once you have them in a box with walls made of social expectations.
It isn't about women being men, or women turning into men, or men to women in those regards. It's about a long chain of people telling those they wish to control how they should be so that they can better subjugate and exploit the lot of us. If we spent all the energy we spend on hate and distruction, instead on love and creation humans could do so much. Instead we let ourselves be goaded into constant conflict. Red vs Blue! Black vs White! Religious vs Not! Men vs Women! ... all of it so that we don't turn our toils to our own betterment. It may have started as vestigial primal urges, but it has been co-opted by those in power to manipulate and control us. We could instead grow and evolve. We are easier to control while the situation is maintained.
The lack of progress is what allows those in power to maintain their position. Let people express themselves however they want. Let them be whoever they want. So long as they are not abusing others.
Turn your cheek, and you can't see what offends you. Trans people aren't the problem, assholes who will use any tool they can to abuse others are the problem.
Re: Can Women Be Men?
Yes these bad actors literally are bad actors as per today's strip huh? Seems like they're the punchline of the comic these days, although to Tat everything is fair game. And so with that in mind, every time he does rail on bad actors he nails it. Yes, when the men's bathroom is out of order and the women's is a single user, it doesn't make you a bad actor to use it. But, as for programming being a kind of trauma, I've heard the phrase "the gift of trauma" as well.... Also, "there is no way you can split the world up so that no one ends up next to someone who isn't different in a way they don't appreciate." If I understand you correctly... the world only splits up so at least some are near appreciably different others?
I agree about the marketing and chain of subjugation. So... progress is slow? Rome wasn't built in a day as is sometimes said. Not that we exist solely in butterflies and rainbows either. And it's true, assholes come in all shapes and sizes, just like all God's creations.
-Russly
I agree about the marketing and chain of subjugation. So... progress is slow? Rome wasn't built in a day as is sometimes said. Not that we exist solely in butterflies and rainbows either. And it's true, assholes come in all shapes and sizes, just like all God's creations.
-Russly
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Re: Can Women Be Men?
As far as bathrooms goes, If you have ever used a port-o-poty in your life you can already understand that the solution is single user design. It's a couple more sinks, mirrors, and walls per building. Maybe a few less total stalls for space. Bathrooms often stand empty for long periods. Some places might need to expand. Poof. Problem Solved. Bonus: Big chunk of the construction industry could spend time renovating bathrooms rather than building more buildings than we have people to fill.
"Gift of Trauma" is just the way some people cope with the bad shit that happens to them. Arguments for survival of trials making one more capable are fine, but this phrase leaves too much open for abuse in the name of care. Programming is a kind of trauma as it is in effect gaslighting. In many cases such conditioning or programming is used for benign purposes, or at least benign intentions. The trouble is that conditioning is possible via lengths of time or pervasiveness of content such that it is possible to sway huge portions of humanity given the patience and resources. Though incremental in a given step, there are always those few whom have the patience required to complete a task over the course of generations. It's amazing what enough power and resources can accomplish. A function has no social constructs, and is only malign when wielded with malign intent.
I mean that without a computer designing things, with Laplacian knowledge, there is no way to position everyone's life such that they never come into contact with someone whom exists in a way that is counter to their own ideals/existence/way-of-life. There are some simple things like Don't F#@$ing rape/abuse/kill people, that I think should be universal. Beyond that people have issues with accepting things like... the existence of a deity that is different from the one to which they were indoctrinated. So accepting that people are not going to attack one another, because they are happy in their position in life, there is no feasible way within human wherewithal to mute the need for patience with the differences of others.
Like in Rome, the word of those in power is what is directing the masses and hastening or retarding progress. There's gotta be a way to allow people to be themselves without someone having to attack them for their way of life, so long as they are not doing harm to others in the process. There has got to be a way to teach humanity the difference between not liking something, and that something being negative. I don't like most rap, I don't listen to it. I don't go to concerts where it is the prevailing music. I don't want to stop people from producing or participating in said genre of music. It's existence, though I do not appreciate it, does not harm me. Sometimes I even have to listen to it when I don't want too. I also have to stand in line at the DMV some times.
Some people are born with genitalia that does not align with the way they wish to dress, express, and comport themselves, when compared with the social structure that we have been conditioned to accept. This fact drives some people so out of their gourds. They can't stand the existence of it. It calls into question things they were told were a certain way and that they didn't have to worry about. Now they are faced with a situation that does not conform to their programming. They become violently opposed to its existence. One can do violence without a weapon. Instead of their leaders telling them 'Just accept these peoples differences' they quietly allow this mentality and for the nonconforming to be seen as other, enemy.
"Gift of Trauma" is just the way some people cope with the bad shit that happens to them. Arguments for survival of trials making one more capable are fine, but this phrase leaves too much open for abuse in the name of care. Programming is a kind of trauma as it is in effect gaslighting. In many cases such conditioning or programming is used for benign purposes, or at least benign intentions. The trouble is that conditioning is possible via lengths of time or pervasiveness of content such that it is possible to sway huge portions of humanity given the patience and resources. Though incremental in a given step, there are always those few whom have the patience required to complete a task over the course of generations. It's amazing what enough power and resources can accomplish. A function has no social constructs, and is only malign when wielded with malign intent.
I mean that without a computer designing things, with Laplacian knowledge, there is no way to position everyone's life such that they never come into contact with someone whom exists in a way that is counter to their own ideals/existence/way-of-life. There are some simple things like Don't F#@$ing rape/abuse/kill people, that I think should be universal. Beyond that people have issues with accepting things like... the existence of a deity that is different from the one to which they were indoctrinated. So accepting that people are not going to attack one another, because they are happy in their position in life, there is no feasible way within human wherewithal to mute the need for patience with the differences of others.
Like in Rome, the word of those in power is what is directing the masses and hastening or retarding progress. There's gotta be a way to allow people to be themselves without someone having to attack them for their way of life, so long as they are not doing harm to others in the process. There has got to be a way to teach humanity the difference between not liking something, and that something being negative. I don't like most rap, I don't listen to it. I don't go to concerts where it is the prevailing music. I don't want to stop people from producing or participating in said genre of music. It's existence, though I do not appreciate it, does not harm me. Sometimes I even have to listen to it when I don't want too. I also have to stand in line at the DMV some times.
Some people are born with genitalia that does not align with the way they wish to dress, express, and comport themselves, when compared with the social structure that we have been conditioned to accept. This fact drives some people so out of their gourds. They can't stand the existence of it. It calls into question things they were told were a certain way and that they didn't have to worry about. Now they are faced with a situation that does not conform to their programming. They become violently opposed to its existence. One can do violence without a weapon. Instead of their leaders telling them 'Just accept these peoples differences' they quietly allow this mentality and for the nonconforming to be seen as other, enemy.
Re: Can Women Be Men?
short answer: no. and vice-versa. have a nice day.
Call me Celina. This forum still have a long way to go until it gets filled with its intended public. And I'll do my best to help us reach that goal. I'm a battleaxe, and when you hear my voice it'll be as loud as a thunder and as clear as a blue sky.
Re: Can Women Be Men?
Wow between the Potato Heads, the Cat In The Hat, and an oof, the reference game is on point. The joke I tend to make to people is that I'm whatever gender you want me to be. That said, I did once break up with a FTM because they just weren't convincing. They didn't believe in surgery, only hormones, and hadn't even gotten to that point at the time. In fact they unfriended me in the end after posting a status about how people didn't find them masculine enough and me being like yeah that was my whole point. I've run into trans folk who pass my bar hormones or not and they weren't one, at least back then.
Yeah the open to abuse bit is true, this is something which would come with clarification then. Also the power and resources line makes me think of that phrase of you put enough energy into a system and order emerges. And, on occasion, I mention the line that a person without enemies has no real position in life. I mean to say, perhaps a more concise saying, that one about without problems we have no reason to be here.
Here's one for you-- what about metal? What I am familiar with is that the Satanist church aren't actual devil worshipers but rather some atheists who made it as a jab at the Catholic church by doing charity work. Like with other music, it's in the attitude of the player I suppose. It's really more a matter of are the musicians in question already 'fallen', so to speak. Not to mention general nature at large remains brutal indefinitely. But, what is true is that attitude of "I can't do this because it's against my religion" versus "you can't do this because it's against my religion."
And, just so I'm correct with you here, you're saying violence is on both 'sides'? That people can pose as a trans person in order to get away with violence, and also that cis people can look at trans people and become so upset they become violent toward those trans people. I can see where Tat gets his recent material from. Imagine haha, Mr Potato Head goes in the women's room and it just so happens to be like some MMA chick who's freaked by trans people. After all, Johnny Bravo was beaten up by women all the time.
Somehow I feel like I could be more sensitive in my terminology....
-Russly
Yeah the open to abuse bit is true, this is something which would come with clarification then. Also the power and resources line makes me think of that phrase of you put enough energy into a system and order emerges. And, on occasion, I mention the line that a person without enemies has no real position in life. I mean to say, perhaps a more concise saying, that one about without problems we have no reason to be here.
Here's one for you-- what about metal? What I am familiar with is that the Satanist church aren't actual devil worshipers but rather some atheists who made it as a jab at the Catholic church by doing charity work. Like with other music, it's in the attitude of the player I suppose. It's really more a matter of are the musicians in question already 'fallen', so to speak. Not to mention general nature at large remains brutal indefinitely. But, what is true is that attitude of "I can't do this because it's against my religion" versus "you can't do this because it's against my religion."
And, just so I'm correct with you here, you're saying violence is on both 'sides'? That people can pose as a trans person in order to get away with violence, and also that cis people can look at trans people and become so upset they become violent toward those trans people. I can see where Tat gets his recent material from. Imagine haha, Mr Potato Head goes in the women's room and it just so happens to be like some MMA chick who's freaked by trans people. After all, Johnny Bravo was beaten up by women all the time.
Somehow I feel like I could be more sensitive in my terminology....
-Russly
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Re: Can Women Be Men?
The Satanists are fine. I'm friends with a few but, get this, there are groups of satanists that take the trappings seriously and do harm in the name of the group. Back to square: There are assholes in every group.
Which is what I mean about both 'sides' or 'groups' or Ven diagrams of social structure... I'm not trying to generalize here to stereotype. So you know there is this thing that was happening in september in a desert where lots of artists flock to expend themselves for mutual entertainment while some selfish assholes play social games with them? Well that is a city for the week it exists in all legal standing and the place ends up with the same damned crime rate and other problems as any other average city scaled to its population. People are constantly trying to find the group of people who are causing all the trouble. That group isn't any one easily ven-diagrammed group either. It's clusters of people who are pretending to uphold a groups values, and are just there to make noise, consume peoples effort, and use that groups defenses, while not actually participating.
Sort of like feminists who don't recognize the irony of finding another group to be their sin eater.
Terminology wouldn't be so important, if people were generally respectful. Margaret Cho does a good bit about how white people have ruined racism because it could have just been disliking and making fun of/avoiding social aspects you didn't like... but now its like oppression, slavery, abuse, assault.
Z6IIAB - In three posts you have shown that you don't have anything to add to a conversation unless you agree with it. My giving a shit about your opinion is canceled.
Which is what I mean about both 'sides' or 'groups' or Ven diagrams of social structure... I'm not trying to generalize here to stereotype. So you know there is this thing that was happening in september in a desert where lots of artists flock to expend themselves for mutual entertainment while some selfish assholes play social games with them? Well that is a city for the week it exists in all legal standing and the place ends up with the same damned crime rate and other problems as any other average city scaled to its population. People are constantly trying to find the group of people who are causing all the trouble. That group isn't any one easily ven-diagrammed group either. It's clusters of people who are pretending to uphold a groups values, and are just there to make noise, consume peoples effort, and use that groups defenses, while not actually participating.
Sort of like feminists who don't recognize the irony of finding another group to be their sin eater.
Terminology wouldn't be so important, if people were generally respectful. Margaret Cho does a good bit about how white people have ruined racism because it could have just been disliking and making fun of/avoiding social aspects you didn't like... but now its like oppression, slavery, abuse, assault.
Z6IIAB - In three posts you have shown that you don't have anything to add to a conversation unless you agree with it. My giving a shit about your opinion is canceled.
Re: Can Women Be Men?
"There are assholes in every group" is wisdom I've lived by for a long time now (and of course here is no exception hahahaha). "While not actually participating" is another agreeable piece of this for sure, claims of support which amount to empty words. To be entirely honest, feminists are a group that often finds no sin eater in favor of smelling their own farts. And this is by design-- the culture, as with femininity at large, is not
one to simply point blame: to the contrary, feminists are so far gone in some instances the idea merely short circuits, like all great philosophy. I call it the Philosopher's Pace. Get into any one philosophy too deeply and you end up with depression.
I'll keep that Margaret Cho line in mind. Yes, as with anything whites get their hands on, extremism is involved. My father is Jewish and my mother is Catholic (yes, including German roots-- I'm my own worst enemy). I've still got the other thread to re-examine. Admittedly in both threads I am waiting for Celina's substantial contributions-- they're there in her mind I suppose....
-Russly
one to simply point blame: to the contrary, feminists are so far gone in some instances the idea merely short circuits, like all great philosophy. I call it the Philosopher's Pace. Get into any one philosophy too deeply and you end up with depression.
I'll keep that Margaret Cho line in mind. Yes, as with anything whites get their hands on, extremism is involved. My father is Jewish and my mother is Catholic (yes, including German roots-- I'm my own worst enemy). I've still got the other thread to re-examine. Admittedly in both threads I am waiting for Celina's substantial contributions-- they're there in her mind I suppose....
-Russly