Anti Vax Prevalence

[Z6IIAB]

But Tavi, also be sure to give the more compassionate response where possible. Sounds like what Zombie needs to hear is that the author doesn't want to discredit those he's insulting, even though, yes, everything is fair game and that's one instance of where this is such a provocative comic.

What are you saying here? That Tavi's response wasn't "compassionate enough"? Be more clear with your commentary. Her response was extremely compassionate, yet honest and firm. And that's enough. We're not here to cuddle people. Especially the ones who still think radical feminism is "anti-trans" for criticizing transactivism's misogynistic and homophobic categorization of women and men.

[LinguisticTacoXX]

Meh, I'll bite. Zombiefluxx does bring up a few valid points, and it was somewhat enlightening to read.

I think there are three ways about "living as a woman"

#1: Identity
#2: How people perceive you now
#3: Biology

#1 is a huge "iffy". Yeah, you can identify as female all you want, but people will likely perceive you as male, and you'll get many of the advantages of being perceived as male. Unless you start presenting stereotypically feminine or stating your "identity", even the most ardent transactivist isn't going to perceive you as anything but male.

#2 gets super tricky here. So you decide to present feminine. People won't really perceive you as 100% male. They may call you that to get under your skin, but they don't perceive you in the same way they would perceive someone who presented male. Like, people do get assaulted and harassed for being perceived as transgender. Men usually have a relative peace of mind when walking the streets. Trans people, I couldn't honestly say, would be afforded that.

Many people usually see you as some in-between or even subhuman if you don't pass. There are people who will see your presentation and see that identity if you don't 100% pass.

Tatsuya takes the hard-line "trans people are subhuman" position. As someone who's kinda against the whole SJW pandering, he kinda takes it to another extreme. He paints them as literal grotesque and disgusting walking zombies. It's a bit overdramatic.

And he hasn't even taken an "oh if you get surgery/hormones, you're okay" position. All are the same to him. Someone like Blaire White is the exact same as Jessica Yaniv.

My take is if you present as a woman and are perceived as one, there's not really much room to say that you currently are perceived as a man. It's just logically inconsistent.

If heterosexual men start sexually harassing you on the streets, I would consider that something similar to what women experience, even if you're not biologically female. There are transwomen who do live effectively as women. Like, if I passed someone who looked like Blaire White on the street, my first thought probably wouldn't be "oh, she looks like a man".

#3... again, also gets tricky. You don't necessarily know what biology someone has by looking at their appearance. You can possibly take a guess, but... it wouldn't necessarily be a correct one, especially with how much variation different people have. Sometimes, with hormonal fluctuations, you see different growth levels than would be expected in a biological male or female.

[RikkiTikkiTavi]

Interesting take LinguisticTaco.

Identity, Perception, Biology. That really does sum up a lot of the 'personal trans experience' as far as I see it. Everything is highly nuanced and not this black and white issue that it gets hyped up in the 'don't question the trans' TRA and woke crowd.

So Zombie says "Trans women ARE women" which as a statement goes against the biology issue -BUT follows that statement up with this great personalized part "when someone says 'men can't be women', I tend to get a might upset, because in my experience, that means you only see me as, AT BEST, a man in drag" - Okay - that is nuanced. That is not a "biology doesn't matter" delusional skree but rather a "quit equating me with people who are just play acting - I am living an Identity".

Now - and Russly, watch closely because here comes some real compassion - I am all for us living in a way that conforms to our internal identity. I am very much in favor of people being gender non conforming because that is the real truth. Gender is just a social construct and it has no bearing on Biology nor Identity - it merely makes it easier for the public to Perceive the stereotypical 'box' a person might be placed in.

So Zombie has an internal Identity that is gender non conforming and wants to be Perceived by the public as that self. Great! Now, Zombie is also young enough that the 'woke' nature of our society tries to remove the nuance and says there are only two stereotypical boxes and you are either in box 'man' or you are in box 'woman'. Pick a box and conform to the stereotype. So Zombie makes the best choice possible in the circumstances because the 'man' box does not fit.

Zombie is also on HRT which is why those upset feelings are so surface, why Zombie is so 'touchy'. Hormones are a bitch - they play on emotions and make it even harder to find any nuance. Hormones delivered in pill/injection form are extra horrible because they exclude any natural buffers. Estrogen makes you weepy and 'sensitive'. Testosterone makes you angry and 'aggressive'. This is fine for the woke crowd because it plays into that whole 'gender box' concept of life.

Now, here comes the firm part of my compassion. I understand why Zombie says 'trans women ARE women' but that is not the most accurate statement.

Here is a great quote from Eva Glasrud:

I’m not going to deny my own oppression and contribute to my own erasure as a sex class just to make someone else feel good.

Put in a situation where someone wanted me to say a male could be a woman, I would simply say, “A woman is an adult, human female. A male who identifies as a woman is a transwoman. That’s different from being a woman, as males and females are very biologically different and have tremendously different experiences due to their biology. But there’s nothing wrong with that! I think it’s wonderful to embrace the diversity of humanity, instead of trying to cram transwomen and women into the same small box.”

So I am not going to 'correct' Zombie's statement as if I am some sort of radical pedant, but I do think of Zombie as a transwoman because that accounts for all the crap that Zombie is going through plus it does not detract from my own very important lived experience.

Are Zombie and I equal 'in the eyes of God' - you bet. Are we the same? Not at all because the 'boxes' are not real.

[Tanagra]

The tightrope. I don't know if Tatsuya differentiates between normal people whose physicality is not going to match their reality without a lot of medical intervention, and the other people. At this time, it doesn't seem as though he does.

On COVID-19, for me the real problem is that he seems to be a hoaxer. There is no pandemic in the sinfest story. 2020 is appropriated by the devil, and that's another statement there. Activism? What activism is the It-Girl doing? She's doing nothing. The chaos there about gender? Barely a blip in the U.S. We do have other statements. "The world is watching. Let her go."

https://sinfest.xyz/view.php?date=2020-03-22

This sequence made me weep. https://sinfest.xyz/view.php?date=2020-03-26
https://sinfest.xyz/view.php?date=2020-04-03

And on April 8, 2020, his first comic to even mention what was happening. The first comic with a lockdown.
The next, first time with pandemic. At the same time, there is no indication that anyone is actually getting sick. That anyone is at threat, or dying. This surely encourages the hoaxers.

[zombiefluxx]

I'm not trying to be a tyrant and bully people for their views and opinion, BUT you have to understand that your view can affect me in everyday life. For example (Stay with me here): Their is a law you are called to vote upon- weather trans people can use the regular public bathrooms. Now lets say you choose not to vote on the issue, 'i don't have strong feeling either way' you might say to yourself. In your view, you're not causing any harm to the trans community by not voting on the issue. BUT, this is something you've discussed with your friends and family. and some of them feel the same way you do. so they also choose not to vote on the law. and they go off and tell there friends, who don't vote on it, so on and so on. As a result of that, not enough people voted in favor and thus trans people like me can't use a public bathroom. And because this law passes, Lawmakers who want to hurt my community start making new laws to further limit my freedom and choices. and absolutely none of it affects you or your family and friends in the slightest. And if you think this example is radical, Do you know i had to resign my position in the army because of Trumps anti-trans laws? 8 years of service flushed down the drain. I don't fault people for having their own opinion, but you need to realize that it can effects me and others like me everyday. Even if you don't realize it.

That's the last I'll say on this matter. Its your life and i really don't want to start dictating how people are allowed to think or feel. We are, after all, only human. just try to be aware that I really do worry about what people think of me everyday, because someday i might not be allowed to live here anymore.

[grabachair]

Long-time lurker, new-ish poster here on the forum. I've literally been reading since 2001 - discovered this comic via a webcomics aggregator and was hooked. Took a hiatus for a few years around 2010-2013, then picked it back up.

I'm hesitant to post because I'm very different politically from a lot of the people here - Catholic libertarian, basically live-and-let-live with a strong preference for emphasizing the poor and marginalized in politics, and keeping politics local when possible (in Catholic Social Teaching, we call these Solidarity and Subsidiarity). I'm personally vaccinated, but my family is split 50/50. The unvaccinated members all had covid and have strong natural immunity. I respect their decisions and have started thinking differently about covid: rather than vaxxed / unvaxxed, my categories are immune/not immune. My whole family is immune, but not everyone is vaccinated. Tat's art this year has been a part of my thinking differently about these categories.

I say all this to say that Tat goes through phases as an artist, and sometimes I agree with him, but oftentimes I don't - and that is a very good thing. His art has helped challenge my views in really healthy ways. Even if my view on a particular idea doesn't change, I always have to think deeply about my beliefs. Whether or not you always agree with Tat, let his art challenge you to grow.

[RikkiTikkiTavi]

There is absolutely an issue in making sure that trans-people have safe access to the needful things in life. I feel for you and I want you to have these things.

And also:

Their is a law you are called to vote upon- weather trans people can use the regular public bathrooms... As a result of that, not enough people voted in favor and thus trans people like me can't use a public bathroom. And because this law passes, Lawmakers who want to hurt my community start making new laws to further limit my freedom and choices. and absolutely none of it affects you or your family and friends in the slightest.

We need a trans-bathroom or gender neutral bathroom or whatever you want to call it option because just saying - go to the bathroom you want to - meaning everybody can use the women's bathroom and there is no space that adult human female can have for themselves is not the answer. Same with the prison issue - adult human females who are incarcerated deserve safety away from predatory males. Trans-women also deserve safety from predatory males.

The problem is predatory males. When the laws become more diffuse (as in 'self identity' is all we go by) these males infiltrate and act like what they are -predators. We cannot properly protect the sex class called adult human females by pretending that 'woman' can mean anything and that everybody being on the 'honor' system will be enough.

So denying an already oppressed class (adult human females) basic protections is not the answer.

I also can't safely use a public restroom anymore. The last time I was going to use a public restroom at a roadside rest stop I saw a guy with a beard entering the multi stalled clearly labeled women's restroom. I did not bother to ask him how he identified - I saw the only safe thing for me to do in that situation was to not enter. Was he a predatory male? I don't know - he was bigger than me and in any altercation I would have been in an extreme disadvantage - based on biology that does not care.

I have my entire life been living a reality that means I must guard against the potential harm of predatory males. I was taught this as a very young girl. I have had this lesson reinforced time and again throughout my life through various means and I am constantly reminded of the potential by news stories from all over the world.

I am effected every day by the decisions that are being made by people who are all too willing to erase my sex class. I am effected every day by people who find it inconvenient to recognize adult human females as a separate entity from trans-women. I am effected every day by a culture of misogyny and culturally enforced standards of gender politics.

Trans people need rights and laws and protection. Granting them this should never come at the cost of removing or reducing the rights, laws and protection of the already oppressed sex class known as adult human females.

[Russly]

Okay guys this is about the point where I cannot keep up with all of this in one day anymore. This forum is lit and I'm all about this. Did not expect such a wide response in the end and I appreciate it all. I'll aim to be back and finish reading these comments when I'm up!

-Russly

[RikkiTikkiTavi]

Okay guys this is about the point where I cannot keep up with all of this in one day anymore. This forum is lit and I'm all about this. Did not expect such a wide response in the end and I appreciate it all. I'll aim to be back and finish reading these comments when I'm up!

-Russly

I always look forward to your posts. I don't always understand them and sometimes I have to search the internet to figure out your references - but they are a refreshing and sometimes weird pleasant experience.

So... hurry up... lol.

[Russly]

Hah hah! Okay okay, here I am. I'm admittedly going to tear into this one a little bit because I'm at such a different place personally. The whole post modern sexuality bit crossed with being whatever gender you want me to be. At the end of the day, there are people targeting demographics at all ends and that's one strange point I find noteworthy, how it's possibly the same people who find ways to exploit all the other types of people, as I segway toward my main concerns. There's too much to cover in general yet I do have some of the rather poignant matters so they're as follows....

Say you have no y chromosome present. Dang, that's too bad. My fiance has three x chromosomes and it delays her development some but only so much and so can be 'overcome' in a way. Her mother has all these books they never read that discuss surpassing debilitating situations. (A perfect fit for my own library!) But there sure seems to be no question in her mind that she represents herself as a girl, or more recently, a lady. She's thirty next month! Note that age contrasts apparently are involved with trisomy x specifically.

Now here's where it gets a bit finnicky. Sure, far out stuff such as Turner's Syndrome, four x chromosomes, or womb transplants for males are certainly rarities... but it adds up. The world has gotten weirder over time. Porn users alone are such a massive demographic already, and there's plenty of room in the rest of the world for all kinds of other unrelated weirdos leftover. The problem is that means the tradition got thrown out the window. There are more weak males and more strong females, for one. Two, there are now so many damn crossover trans fluctuating methodist Trader Joe's recruiting enamel pin wearing asteroids of weirdos that have sprung out of this movement that, as far as anyone's concerned, it amounts to gen z coming of age while gen alpha gets a turn in the spotlight to show how weird existence now is. Zombie is not one of these people. And three, just for kicks, while assuming 99.5% of the world is supposed to be comparatively 'normal', there is no guarantee that's actually true or would stay true for all that long by now, or that we would survive until then. At best, I'll grant Zombie is likely young, and even if not, maybe young to the scene. The 'compassionate' response is indeed to simply understand it takes too much time to retell (as in repeat) all of history, and instead understand where in the timeline of existence a given person is, which applies to all of us and was maybe earlier termed as your 'experience'.

Tavi has aggressors waiting in the bathroom. Zombie has doctors at the ready to exploit any healthcare decision. I have insurance agents about to charge me $3,000 a year for the van I live in. The tough answer to Tavi is that yes, a person without enemies has no real position in life. The tough answer to Zombie is a transwoman isn't a woman per se. But by God it's fucked that the transwoman experience is still of course far worse to experience in terms of safety in enough instances, and this isn't even to speak of that forbidden word transman on this forum. And what's up with all the "I don't mean to bully" or antagonize or whatever type theme? Can't people just firmly state where their triggers are in an objective fashion by that point? Or perhaps that's too chaotic. In any event it's important to note that you don't have to let bygones be bygones here, if anything to me this is a nuthouse full of ne'er do wells if I ever saw one hahaha! I kid, but seeing everyone go off on this thread has still been illuminating to say the least.

So yeah, I might not give any sympathy to Tavi and instead say okay learn to fight, and nor would I side with Zombie because there's still always aggressive men waiting for timid women somewhere-- you can't get all women to become that 'masculine'... and you can't get all men to be masculine either. We haven't even scratched the surface of say, the human trafficking business, cows that die by the thousands per second for fast food, or anything related to the dark web. We're literally just typing here on a forum. Thank your damn stars you get even the time to be calm enough to exist that long and do even that. Our libertarian friend's right on the mark on that count! It's healthy to simply have a normal take on life sometimes, it cultivates calm overall.

We can't taking anything here too personally or too seriously for the simple reason that here is where we will definitely find the people who are so out there, our perfect trigger person's bound to be among them somewhere. And when you meet them it is perhaps about the whole "respond, don't react" mentality at that point, and learning more about your own misgivings of the day, for all sides. Four dingleberries indeed... the man doesn't know when to quit? But isn't that a trademark of this whole conversation, not realizing what we do and don't go overboard with? Tat's a man who has to live with his first strips still being on the website, and somehow he, or at least the comic, still learns and grows. (Essentially retconning unfortunately, not exactly?) I come on here each day expecting to be wrong about something and that's exactly what I love about it. The challenge. Any person holding on to any view at all you juxtapose. (Transwomen in bathrooms? Women now learn to fight. Have your whole life dictated in tandem with hormones and doctors' advice? Those are still capitalist doctors. Tl;dr maybe... you're both wrong and both right.) As far as I can tell, we're here to see what's new in the world, and this is the crazy ass shit that has to happen to keep existence in general fresh, at least this far in.

Er. The last two paragraphs just got deleted on me like the other time but I got the screenshot in this instance so I will attempt them again in this case. It makes sense because they were the two where I basically explain how gender is really just related to language and I did an okay job and could redo that but let's try a different way anyway instead. In fact there might even be another one or two paragraphs that deleted entirely but I don't think so....

Anyway the short version of is it everybody's a clown when they sleep on the math of it. Michael Vincent Miller writes in the book Intimate Terrorism on a specific note that gender originated only as a linguistic concept. Basically language itself invented gender. It really has to do with words themselves, like the le and la, and the various prefixes and suffixes and so on that emerge. We went and fucked it up when applying the idea to humans themselves. Consider how the imaginary idea of a wall turned into the prolonged real shutdown. That bit where first it was Great Gatsby then it was O.J. Simpson. Gender was a linguistic concept that evolved organically within traditional language and then got applied to people somewhere along the line (and whoops now there's real life violence and mutilation as a part of all this too). So much has to do with simply being conceptually erroneous... it could've stayed quiet back in the realm of library coffee tables.

Since I got the screenshot this final piece is mostly what I had been saying, and the last few sentences are the originals so take note. This concept of gender as a totally derailed linguistic-tool-turned-oppressive-movement has some unusual antecedents. It basically means that we're off the mark by so much it's borderline irrelevant. We sit here all day and fervently extrapolate on this and that with people, in complete disregard to the basics of how the language originated. We basically saw an opportunity as we often do and unleashed the world of gender onto humans. This is because humans will jump at the chance to open up any Pandora's Box they can get. Be it luxury cars, forms of edible CBD, climate change, or cartoons like Sinfest or, say, Rick and Morty. Anybody remember the Sezechuan sauce? Yeah, humans are nuts. But the point is there's a way to talk without gender when you realize it's a linguistic issue in the first place. Kind of like talking in an online format but in a way that prevents something like being left on read from seeming awkward. You get to that level and you have other problems on your hands. Is the Oxford Comma appropriate or should we start writing them as JIFs rather than GIFs when we want it to be pronounced that way in the reader's head?

-Russly

[zombiefluxx]

Damn, i did not expect to get that kind of reaction outta someone. I didn't understand all the big words and got bored half way through but i think the gist of it is "I win, everyone else is wrong." lol. No, but really, seriously, i have these kind of discussions every day so i tip toe around a lot of issues while trying not to blow up at everyone (I have a lot of anger issues). And if you want me to state my intentions clearly then these are it: I am here, I exist as a transwoman, and if you try to take away my human rights i will punch you in the face you bastards. i don't think i can get anymore clear then that. i'm going to kick and scream and be heard from the mountains because that's the only way i seemed to get noticed. But at the end of the day i just want to live. period. i don't want to take anything away from anyone. Can't we all just get along? no? then fuck you.

[RKA]

For what its worth, here is what I believe and why:

"Trans-women are women" because manhood/womanhood is not defined solely defined by genetics, biology, anatomy, culture, society, or personal identity, but rather by a complex combination of all of these factors and more.

There's no denying the existence of people who disprove simple XX/XY genetic definitions, nor the existence of intersex individuals who disprove even the anatomical dichotomy of external/internal genitalia, presence/absence of specific secondary sexual characteristics, etc. On the basis of scientific fact, the umbrellas we use to define "man" and "woman" are broad and in fact overlapping. Granted, I believe in inclusive, rather than exclusive definitions; that is to say, defining "woman" and "man" by what they ARE rather than by what they are NOT. Exclusive definition quickly become quite pointless in the face of the complex facts of human genetics, biology, and anatomy

All that said there is also what I would call "cultural truth" (as opposed to "scientific fact"), which plays a huge part in the human experience and the reality people live every day. Cultural truth is a lot like personal truth or identity, in that it is subjective (as opposed to the objective truths which can be discussed as scientific facts), but cultural truth is a shared subjective truth rather than one which belongs only to the individual that experiences it the way that a personal truth or identity does.

Just as there is no disputing much of the scientific facts above, there is no disputing the history and present existence of socially and culturally defined groups and classes of gender who have been the targets of horrific discrimination, oppression, and violence. But culture and society are always changing, in ways we can control and in ways we can't. What it means to be a "woman" or a "man" in today's culture is in many, but not all, ways very different from what it has meant in the past, and what it means in the future will be different from what it means today. I believe we have a responsibility to embrace and fight for cultural and societal change that decreases discrimination, oppression, and violence.

"Trans-women are women" is something I believe to be true on a scientific level, in that they meet the objective criteria that can define what it is to be a "woman" in the anatomical or biological sense. But it is also a statement I believe to hold cultural truth in the present, though it is obviously not universally held as such. But as stated above, I believe we have a responsibility to embrace and fight for positive/constructive change; so I, and an increasingly large segment of the population, embrace and fight for this as a cultural truth in the hope that Trans-women (and indeed all women) will face less discrimination, oppression, and violence in the future in a society that divides itself less and celebrates the diversity of the human experience more

[Russly]

I mean the point of all the parts with the big words is that yeah I think Zombie's maybe like 30% right and Tavi's like 70% right when it comes to everything said on this thread. Which does mean a significant percentage of both being wrong. So fuck you too haha nah I kid but I do understand that the 'compassionate' response I've been referring to has to do with properly acknowledging that people do attempt to take away the rights of transwomen and transmen and what that entails (but still, put your energies toward activism in place of linguistic infighting). Also, yes, I do win. Too bad for you!

"Trans Women Are Women" okay I didn't want to give examples of the linguistic clownery but be ready because this is how I believe. Women are women and men are men and men are women and women are men. Both are both and all both in reverse but that still includes each so it doesn't necessarily matter. Transwomen are transwomen and transmen are transmen and they too are women and men and nonbinary and agender and any of the rest of the alphabet soup count too. And, while I'm at it, I bet one day there will be more kinds of gender classifications than there are people. We'll have to take turns deciding which roles to be when, just so all can exist. It's almost like I'm trolling or being trolled or something at this point. Still following?

The point being you -can- say any one of these and have all the implications that may logically follow. Not quite on the level of "this sentence is a lie" or "Hitler was a nice guy" yet you get the gist. I -believe- what RKA alludes to is a sort of honing in on the meta cultural take on this gender role diversity. Like when One Piece talks about people forgetting why they fought because they want to see that epic of a fight (completely nonsensical by the way). I've heard one postmodern issue is the abandonment of metanarratives being its own metanarrative. But yeah, the more meta we go, the more these kinds of meta analytical posts pop up....

And finally, by God, if this is about camps then it's no different than corona.

-Russly

[LinguisticTacoXX]

I think a lot of what goes into this is the assumption that trans people are faking it/delusional/whatever. I don't subscribe to that line of thought. I think gender itself is bullshit, and trans is a very limited category in that bullshit category. I feel like trans people should ideally be seen like someone getting an ear piercing or a tattoo. It's just a thing that exists to me.

In my opinion, it takes no words away from my vocabulary to call people how they want to be called or to be nice to them. I don't get out that much personally, but most of the trans people I've met have been really nice? Like most of my thought process is "okay, this person wants to be called this, so I'll do my best to remember that". I can remember the names of most Pokémon, so this is a piece of cake to me.

Not to say there aren't bad faith actors. Like, part of me thinks Yaniv is a conservative man who's faking it to make a point. It just doesn't personally make sense to me why even the most insane TRA would show up on conservative talk shows to make their case. I mean, Poe's Law and all, but... it just doesn't make sense to me.

Whether or not I believe trans women and biological women or trans men and biological men are the same... doesn't matter too much to me. I mean, obviously there are a few situations where it would matter, but like... I tend to treat men and women the same anyway for the most part.

As for bathrooms... I feel like if I believe someone's obviously not faking being trans for a malicious reason, I'd be the first one to stand by them and let them use the ladies'. Because I know what it's like to feel unsafe.

Inversely, if I see someone who obviously isn't genuine and is making people feel unsafe, I would make them very scared. I've stood up to people much bigger and taller than me, and I could fight God if I had to. I've told a man who threatened me to his face that I would rip his balls off and shove them down his throat.

[Russly]

I found out at one point that Jews with tattoos can't be buried in their traditional cemeteries...? Anyway, I may agree that it isn't about the category mentality. Though I also admit only a certain demographic can remember all the Pokemon (especially since the list gets bigger by the year...). Yaniv and Poe's Law I am unfamiliar with but will keep in mind.

Yeah I take it on a case by case basis almost too often, whether we are talking gender or corona. But please, for the love of God, don't fight God. For your own sake. Or at least, fight God sure, see what happens! Slick once famously said "Bring It On!"

-Russly