Let's talk about prostitution

[Z6IIAB]

or, like some people like to call it, "sex work".

Here's an interesting video to start up our conversation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HS5QOkrXsUc

[October]

Pornography and prostitution are two areas I feel very strongly about. I stand with the victims of these industries, and do not believe you can separate child sexual abuse/exploitation/trafficking from either, due to demand.

Do I understand that there are those that actively choose to participate? Of course I do. Back in my libfem years, I worked in advertising for the adult entertainment industry. These were the 'high class' escorts, BDSM folks, tantric practitioners and yes, transgender escorts as well. I spoke with our 'clients' every day, reviewed the photos they wanted to use, and helped them with their publicity.

I have heard some of the saddest, most heart-wrenching stories - and these were from ID-verified adult, 'willing participants' in the industry. Once I had my perspective change, I kept those experiences in mind as I went into law and began trying to help victims of sexual and physical violence. Then, I was speaking with victims who never got to make those choices. Almost exclusively women and children.

I wish very strongly for the Nordic model to be put in to practice here in the states!

[Z6IIAB]

Okey, I'll have to ask you half a millions questions now, please don't mind that:

Back in my libfem years, I worked in advertising for the adult entertainment industry. These were the 'high class' escorts, BDSM folks, tantric practitioners and yes, transgender escorts as well. I spoke with our 'clients' every day, reviewed the photos they wanted to use, and helped them with their publicity.

So, your 'clients' were actually the people selling, well, themselves? How did that work? When you don't have a... "boss"? They didn't have a "boss", did they?

I have heard some of the saddest, most heart-wrenching stories - and these were from ID-verified adult, 'willing participants' in the industry.

[...] Then, I was speaking with victims who never got to make those choices. Almost exclusively women and children.

I know it might sound kind of morbid, but could you share some of those stories? Without exposing anyone involved of course. Idk about other people, but I have a hard time with abstractions, I work better with examples. I know I know, I already read many horrible stories in blogs and articles about people in the sex industry, coerced and corned into lying about how everything was fine, when it wasn't. But all knowledge is good knowledge, especially when coming from a new trustworthy source.

Once I had my perspective change, I kept those experiences in mind as I went into law and began trying to help victims of sexual and physical violence.

That is so AWESOME. For us that are not into law, how can we help? Do you think looking for NGOs is enough, or do you have to have some kind of prep course or degree beforehand? And I'm not asking only for USA, I do not live there.

Also, I too wish the Nordic model was more popular but well... I've heard a lot of push back on politics like that, and claims that it doesn't work? Even tho' I also heard it DOES work well for the victims of the sex industry. So... there's some crossed wires, maybe?

[October]

Questions are absolutely fine!

So, your 'clients' were actually the people selling, well, themselves? How did that work? When you don't have a... "boss"? They didn't have a "boss", did they?

Over half of the time, with the women escorts, they did. Yes, there were pimps. One was even a b-list celebrity, whose name I won't disclose. Sometimes, the pimps would call in for the ladies, but that was more often just when they were setting up ads for all of their 'girls' (the first time). Afterward, the escorts themselves would call to make changes and such because the pimps didn't want to be bothered.

With BDSM and Trans clients, they would call in themselves. I worked on the basic call center floor for a few months, and sometimes spoke to Johns, but got promoted to sales admin calls, because I had a knack for dealing with our most demanding and difficult clients. It was a national agency.

but could you share some of those stories?

I could write on and on for hours. I even have some admittedly funny stories, too. But with many of the hardest ones, there were often overlapping issues. Here's just a snapshot:

- A massage-therapy + escort was nearing her thirties. She started giving backrubs to her boyfriend and his junkie pals in her mid-teens, and soon things were escalating, and the boyfriend basically pimped her out. If she was going to (in her words) "Get gang banged by guys I thought were my friends", she would at least take the money.

She caught a break in her twenties, got pregnant, and went to get at least a message therapy license in her state. Once she got that, however, no legit massage parlor would hire her, so she started escorting again. At her age, she used to call me at least once a week in tears, saying that there was no job that would pay her what she needed to cover her expenses and her daughter's, and she didn't know what she was going to do.

- A young lady was working under a pimp, but would call to make her own changes to the ads. She casually told me that her dad had put her on the street at fifteen, and she had herpes before she had her driver's license. She'd been hospitalized twice after being brutalized by Johns, and arrested once. She said she figured she'd be dead or in jail before she hit 25.

- One pimp got into a car accident while he was on the phone with me, and he launched into a horrible screaming fit at the two ladies he had with him, accusing them of causing the accident by distracting him, and yelling that they would each have to give him "three days of blood and ass" to make up for the outcalls they were about to miss.

Over and over again, the stories were often the same. They got in, whether through a pimp or by themselves, and then saw no way out. They accepted having to deal with disease, rape, drugs and arrest, because they didn't think they could leave the business. It was too dangerous, or there were no options that would enable them to restart a life in a new direction.

Many had kids. Another depressing element happened with the transgender clients - most of those I spoke with on a regular basis were only in the business to afford surgery and/or hormones. The most beautiful escort I ever did work for was a transgender woman who looked like a Victoria's Secret model. She was South American, and just breathtaking. But it was painful to hear her say that she felt like a freak plaything for money.

For us that are not into law, how can we help?

Much depends on the law and NGO's in your area, but one big thing is to see if you can volunteer for organizations trying to set up pathways out of the business. Otherwise, anything you can do for organizations that fight trafficking, domestic violence, etc. will be helpful!

[Moon'ique]

Technically I was an "Escort" but that kind of went out the window after the first week. I don't know, it was a weird thing where there was a couple basically in charge but not really, they set up the meetings and most of the time we'd just spend time with people that I swear were twice the age of most of working there. Made good money from it, the people I worked with were nice and the couple kind of had a "No Drugs" policy that they enforced if you wanted to keep working.

Only time I was uncomfortable was when a woman I remembered from my childhood as one of my aunts friends getting me for the day, and her not recognizing me(The couple encouraged us to come up with "Stage Names", I chose Dorian Hemlock.). There was some groping from the start, bout the only time I wanted to throw up.

Luckily a severe storm kicked up before it went any further, and I left with about a quarter of what I'd usually make from a sit down. Quit after wards since I had found a better job working as a consultant.

So I don't know, that's just my experience with the sex business. Escorts, prostitutes, hookers, it's kind of all the same once money is involved and people start bringin' the naughty parts into play.

Definitely wouldn't do it again though.

[Z6IIAB]

Thank you! To both of you!

Yeah... the stories kept on being as terrible as I remember... I'm so angry we must live in a money-dictaded society where women's dignity ends up worthing nothing near our need to survive or pay debts... it's not fair, we should have better options, especially for the ones of us that are living in poverty.

I'll follow your advice on how to help, October. Thanks, again. Please, keep talking about it!

[Lizal]

Thank you for sharing your experiences. They're really valuable teaching tools.

I've heard from a few accounts that the recent passing of SESTA has made things more dangerous. Does anyone know if that's true? I've heard it's made the pool of clients shrink, forcing the less criminal Johns out, and forcing the workers to rely on shadier and more violent clients to get by, while not actually preventing trafficking and abuse.

[Z6IIAB]

Thank you for sharing your experiences. They're really valuable teaching tools.

I've heard from a few accounts that the recent passing of SESTA has made things more dangerous. Does anyone know if that's true? I've heard it's made the pool of clients shrink, forcing the less criminal Johns out, and forcing the workers to rely on shadier and more violent clients to get by, while not actually preventing trafficking and abuse.

...

dude. you are evil. I'm so glad Tat called your bullshit out, cause I would've NOT know:

Of course trans women are welcome. They are people who identify and present as female, who suffer the same (often, more) sexism and discrimination, and who can clearly see just how real the patriarchy is. It affects them differently in some cases, but we are all fighting to dismantle the system of oppression. We all have each other's backs, even if not every issue affects every one of us.

Let's fight for women's bodily autonomy, together. Let's fight for transition resources together. Let's dismantle the oppressive system that holds women back, denies promotions, silences us, tells us to stop standing up for ourselves. We are there for our sisters. Patriarchy is the enemy.

You are Zilla from the other forum.

You are pro-prostitution and pro-pornography.

Please go to the other forum.

Thanks.

Sir.

All due respect, I am not pro-prostitution or porn. There are inherently exploitative elements that run rampant through society and they need to be eradicated. I don't want trafficking. I don't want exploitation. I don't want women to suffer in a system that silences them. I want to fix this and I am doing what I can to uplift women's voices.

You could be a powerful ally, or you can try to be a wedge to divide our community. Right now, you are hurting your own goals. You're better than this. If not, I am better you, and I'll be sad to leave you behind.

Punch up. Never down.

Solidarity, sisters.

So i keep circling back on the SWERF arguments... and im trying to really understand where Sinfest is, and what it's flaws are. So far, I'm at the point of thinking, the main problem is the narrative doesn't have any room for legitimate sex trade. The existence of such threatens and counters the message of the strip, as it seems to cast any narrative about using sex as a positive transaction as propaganda.

You believe in a "legitimate sex trade."

You shouldn't have to. It's hate speech and most of the arguments aren't original. I really don't think there's anything of value to be gained by even acknowledging or arguing with TERFs. It's a toxic ideology that's already pretty heavily discredited.

Please go to the other forum.

[TinT]

Thank you for sharing your experiences. They're really valuable teaching tools.

I've heard from a few accounts that the recent passing of SESTA has made things more dangerous. Does anyone know if that's true? I've heard it's made the pool of clients shrink, forcing the less criminal Johns out, and forcing the workers to rely on shadier and more violent clients to get by, while not actually preventing trafficking and abuse.

Really, your "accounts" are saying that demand shrinking isn't affecting the profitability and therefore rate of trafficking? And you're credulous enough to believe that? How about the accounts of exploited women and girls who explained that systems like Backpage only increased their vulnerability, as they had to accept unwanted clients and accept degrading sexual violence--rape--because they were dependent on johns giving them good ratings? How about the accounts of women and girls groomed into webcamming and then hardcore pornography and/or prostitution by supposedly legitimate "Sex Ed" web communities that pushed the disgusting, misogynistic, exploitative narrative that "sex work is work", is empowering!, is a path to riches!

SESTA isn't perfect, but overall it was good legislation to pass. But it is critical to also get Nordic Model reform enacted, so trafficked women and girls have legal avenues open to them to escape exploitation and abuse.

[Khloros]

That's a very dramatic video, maybe it's her personal experience?

Everybody has diferent views and lfie experiences.

Take a look at this video;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxnCGEUcY0s

What you guys think?

[elbereth]

So does everybody favor the Nordic model to start abolishing prostitution? The Nordic model with additions? More Radical solutions? Less radical?

And what about the porn industry? the same method won't shut that down. Criminalize it ? Unionize and regulate it? some other solution?

Most of my most radical feminist friends are/were sex workers and do not favor complete shutdowns of either industry so I would like more radical suggestions rather than less.

[Z6IIAB]

I favor the Nordic Model applied with a strong firm hand and to it's completion. It's easy:

Criminalize PIMPS and JOHNS

Give prostituted women, children, teen and men alternative jobs

INFORM THE POPULATION ABOUT THE HARMS OF PROSTITUTION

The problem is when you have a huge country, lots of people that want to keep up prostitution for financial and selfish interests and a weak group of people to enforce those 3 steps.

Does that answer some of your questions, elbereth? We all know pratice is harder than theory. That's why we need though people on the job. And those have an easier job when the culture favor discipline and both people and country are relatively small. It's a long process to make changes in developeded or third world countries, where there's a lot of land and people and sometimes a culture that punishes complying to laws and thinking of the greater good. And I'm from Brasil, I know what I'm talking about.

[queencassi]

Sort of, I more wanted to start a conversation.

I favor the Nordic model but I feel it is not enough and there are many variations on it that might work better (or worse). I think a variation that might work better is fines for johns ($200 or so where I am in the US) and increasing the penalties for assault/rape/trafficking that occur during the crime of purchasing or attempting to purchase sex. This would reduce retribution on the victims while still decreasing demand and preventing the independent women from “going undergroundâ€￾. I think the fine should increase every year until it is hefty enough to completely choke off the demand for sex. My idea is if a john pays women for sex she can turn him in if he doesn’t pay and any retribution (assault etc) would be much more severe which would help to protect her. I think these needs to go hand in hand with other measures. As you pointed out; ex-prostitutes still need money and jobs. Without additional programs this system would just (hopefully) protect prostitutes and would be the same as regulation which is not the goal. I wanted to hear details about what you thought the problems would be, and things like do you favor jail time over fines and why? This way I could refine my opinions and activism.
I think to abolish prostitution we need to act in multiple areas, legal, activism and radicalism.

Legal method includes laws like the Nordic model, adjusted by country. What works in your Brazil may not work as well in the US. Rape/trafficking laws need to be adjusted as well. Too often now they are decreased penalties when the victim is a prostitute rather than increase to protect them.

In activism I group things like education and victim rehabilitation. The implementation to Social programs like universal healthcare, jobs and education is important too and overlaps with legal methods.

Radical actions include direct action/protests against the porn industry and parts of the government that try to protect the sex industry. In this area I was thinking about things that were a little less legal like people chaining themselves to buildings to protest the sex industry. I am fairly vanilla when it comes to feminism so I wanted to meet and discuss this with people here who seem to be more experienced or just have stronger opinions.

However, I was immediately banned after the above post. (I am elbereth too btw). I am trying not to take this personally and was just going to observe the forum for other people ideas. I thought about just slinking off offended, but that seemed like just giving up.

It seems like the ideas that most people have here include putting down others who have slightly different opinions and parroting each other’s outrage back and forth without much real information/discussion. It is pretty disappointing and it seems like a central clique is dominating everything. I fully expect to get banned again for pointing this out, but I think that might be for the best as it will force me to search out better groups and forums rather than pretending this one fulfills anything. This forum is eventually just going to be Z6IIAB and Tatsuya Ishida either telling people they are stupid or calling them trolls and banning them.

[Z6IIAB]

My idea is if a john pays women for sex she can turn him in if he doesn’t pay and any retribution (assault etc) would be much more severe which would help to protect her.

Unless he kills her. Which happens often, and is most heard off when it happens to transwomen in prostitution.

[...] Legal method includes laws like the Nordic model, adjusted by country. What works in your Brazil may not work as well in the US.

I know, that's what I was talking about.

In activism I group things like education and victim rehabilitation. The implementation to Social programs like universal healthcare, jobs and education is important too and overlaps with legal methods.

The Nordic Model does include educating people and getting alternative jobs to prostituted women. Really, have you read about it?

However, I was immediately banned after the above post. (I am elbereth too btw).

I noticed. It was probably because Tat has experience with bullshitters. Guess you're gonna be banned again.

It seems like the ideas that most people have here include putting down others who have slightly different opinions and parroting each other’s outrage back and forth without much real information/discussion.

Accurate description. Of the old forum.

No, it's just that, in Tat's words: "The new forum will be anti-pornography, anti-prostitution.

It will favor the radical feminist perspective over a liberal or conservative one."

It is pretty disappointing and it seems like a central clique is dominating everything.

Read above. Also, Tat owns this forum. It's about his comic. If he wants to ban someone he will. There's nothing no one can do about it. Btw, the older forum was full of people that support the sex industry and think being "anti-terf" is feminist. Why don't you go there instead?

I fully expect to get banned again for pointing this out, but I think that might be for the best as it will force me to search out better groups and forums rather than pretending this one fulfills anything.

Bye then, pretty clear you where just picking a fight with people that didn't want to anyways. That's why we moved here instead of wasting our time on the older forum.

This forum is eventually just going to be Z6IIAB and Tatsuya Ishida either telling people they are stupid or calling them trolls and banning them.

I see no problem with that. I've been a die-hard fan of the comic for 11 years, the moment I get a paycheck I'll become a patreon. Plus, I'm pretty sure most people genuinely coming to this forum have lives and stuff to do. That's why they are not here all the time, obessesing over a thing and a person they dislike at best, unlike the people on the old forum!

I'm just here a lot because I'm enjoying a great amount of free time lol.

Anyways, Bye.